Shireroth

So Liam endorsed (for lack of a better word) Shirlan and told that it really seemed like a good micronation... well, it's been four years, and my episodic memory leaks like a bucket as always, but since documentation on what happened is available and some highlights *have* burned into my memory, I think it's time to set the record straight.

As a further disclaimer before we begin, I was never actually involved with Shirlan before the annexation, and if I recall correctly, it was given to me mainly because my Barony (Straylight) was otherwise so empty at the time. I don't know anything about their pre-Shirithian history beyond what I can read at their forum (and what can be found in other relatively obvious place such as Shyriath's autobiography).

The fact is, now that I read the forum it really *did* seem like a promising, vibrant, young nation that unfortunately died an early death. It's hard to imagine what it looked like from the inside at the time, but if you were there, and had great hopes and plans for its future, it might have looked even more vibrant than it did to me...

I'm somewhat unclear by now how it actually came to be that they got annexed to us. Scott has, if I recall correctly, said that he thought at the time that the annexation of Shirlan was a great achievement for his as MiniEx. It really seemed like the annexed Shirlan would be a great new county with a unique culture that would keep being developed within Shireroth... something that, incidentally, I don't think we've *ever* really managed to do. I can't think of any annexed subdivision that its original citizens would have kept active after annexation... save Lothlaria, maybe... and Antica for a shortish time...

So, what's the problem, then? Well... Shirlan turned out to be something quite different than we'd bargained for. Quite different. It slowly dawned on us that most citizens of Shirlan - every one of them that was active at the time of the annexation except Shyriath - were actually one person. One person who, if you count carefully enough, probably still has James beaten in the number-of-double-logins department. Ann Marie was the source of most posting activity in Shirlan as she'd often have conversations between her double logins, and was in fact the only person to ever post on some of its forums...

If I met another person like her in micronations again, I'd make a challenge out of trying to make sense of what she did and try to communicate with her in a meaningful way. At times it'd be like trying to discuss neuropsychology with a Martian. Despite our best efforts, she never seemed to understand that micronationalism involves playacting having or submitting to authority (though, looking back on it, we all kind of look like fascists in there)... it just didn't work with her. Nothing that we tried did. I don't know what she wanted out of Shireroth. I'd like to think that she was either simply a very imaginative troll that was not interested in micronations at all, or a person with a reason to be malicious.... it would feel terribly strange to think that she might have thought she was acting in proper form.

(Chrimigules asked me about this post on #micronations and I told him a two-sentence version of the story. His response was "ugh, paples...". I don't think these double logins were paples. Paples have a purpose. They inflate a nation's citizen count so as to make it seem more respectable and well-established. Ann Marie's double logins were more like a private game played on a public forum. I can't find any indication that she cared for what Shirlan or Shireroth looked like to outsiders.)

As more and more logins were revealed to be Ann Marie's (her posting style is distinctive enough that you can identify her after a few posts without having to be excessively paranoid), Shirlan started looking less and less like a good deal. I can't quite remember the reason why I left Shireroth at the same time, though I don't recall it had anything to do with Shirlan. Anyway, as Shyriath started feeling guilty about the whole affair he, too, ended up basically leaving because he felt too bitter and guilty to be reminded of Shirlan's existence, and being around in Shireroth much would have made avoiding Shirlan quite difficult. Thus, we ended up with nothing but Ann Marie who, despite being an active poster, really was just trouble. She faded away soon afterwards, too.

In the end, what had seemed like one of the best deals Shireroth ever got into had ended up with us temporarily losing one of our best citizens, me slinking away, and a lot of the rest of Shireroth getting very annoyed by Ann Marie's antics. Shirlan is still associated with bitterness and feelings of lost purpose in these parts. Still, despite the fact that I believe Ann Marie was a unique case, there are some things that can be learned from it... that sometimes hope blinds you to realities that should be obvious, that sometimes despite your best efforts you just can't get through to people, that... hell, I can't think of a third thing to complete the list. Shirlan was not an educational experience. It was simply thoroughly pointless.

So would you look down on Toketi claiming it and calling it Toketi New Shirlan?

I hold no claim to Shirlan anymore. I don't think anybody else in the Imperial government does, either. You'll want to ask Shyriath about it.

I'm not asking for the rights to it (if I want it, I'll take the land, since I don't think anyone will complain anyway, though I will name it something else if Shyriath vetos me), I'm just asking if it would be in bad taste to do so...

Well... it's fine with me... as long as you don't talk too loudly about the connection with Shireroth

*Finds unbidden images called forth from the mists of his mind, and remembers...*

Ah well. It's been long enough, I guess, and I can talk about it without hurting overmuch.

I don't know anything about their pre-Shirithian history beyond what I can read at their forum (and what can be found in other relatively obvious place such as Shyriath's autobiography).

There wasn't much pre-Shirerithian history, to be honest (other than fictional). It was meant to be a sort of hybrid between roleplaying and micronation. It was, in hindsight, far too ambitious as it was set up; it needed far more people (ACTUAL people, that is, rather than evil clones) to be all that I thought it would be, and I had only a few, and we had really only gotten started on one adventure before the annexation. Back in those days, I was idealistic enough to think that I could come up with a nice vision, convince some RPing friends to join in, and it'd all roll onward from there.

Alas.

It really seemed like the annexed Shirlan would be a great new county with a unique culture that would keep being developed within Shireroth... something that, incidentally, I don't think we've *ever* really managed to do. I can't think of any annexed subdivision that its original citizens would have kept active after annexation...

I think that, with saner people, it might actually have worked in this case. Most nations we annex, I think, tend to have been established long enough to HAVE a distinct culture, and memories of past glory that tend to make people disappointed in an existence as a mere subdivision; whereas Shirlan was still small and developing.

If I met another person like her in micronations again, I'd make a challenge out of trying to make sense of what she did and try to communicate with her in a meaningful way. At times it'd be like trying to discuss neuropsychology with a Martian.

Ahhhh, yes. Now, let me tell you a thing about Ann Marie, who I knew better as SimplyRhedd. Rhedd had problems understanding things in Shirlan, too, and the appearance of various logins of people that operated on her version of logic should have warned me about what was to come.

Now, I don't know if anyone else ever tried talking to her by email or IM, but I did email her a number of times; and without going into too much detail, I can tell you that that whatever the reason for her behavior, it did NOT change while out of the public eye. We had several extended email discussions that left me utterly baffled as to what she was thinking, or even talking about. Either she was trying to be extremely consistent in how she presented herself to others, or that was, in fact, normal behavior for her.

Still, despite the fact that I believe Ann Marie was a unique case, there are some things that can be learned from it... that sometimes hope blinds you to realities that should be obvious, that sometimes despite your best efforts you just can't get through to people, that... hell, I can't think of a third thing to complete the list. Shirlan was not an educational experience. It was simply thoroughly pointless.

In the end, yes. I think what's hurt me more, though, is that if it hadn't been for Ann Marie's antics, it all could have turned out quite different, and more positive... Shirlan might be no less dead by now, but at least it WOULDN'T have been pointless, then.

And I REALLY regret deleting everything. The maps of territory, the fictional history, the blurbs on the dragons that were supposed to live there... things that were extremely cool, but that just pained me to look at them at the time. Everything I could get my hands on, I wiped out. All I have left are two pictures, which survived by way of being physical pictures tucked away in a binder.

I'm not asking for the rights to it (if I want it, I'll take the land, since I don't think anyone will complain anyway, though I will name it something else if Shyriath vetos me), I'm just asking if it would be in bad taste to do so...

I have no objections whatsoever. If the name of Shirlan comes to mean something better because of it, then I'll be content.

As for the land: the MCS, due to having an abundance of land at the time, granted Shirlan quite a lot more than I had asked for, as seen in this map; if you look toward the upper-right corner, where there's a somewhat butterscotch-colored country shown north of Lothlaria, that'll be what Shirlan got. The cities shown in that area were there before I made the claim, and I never got around to renaming them before things went wrong. The official maps, which I had drawn up immediately prior to making the claim, originally only included that curved peninsula just north of Bonapartii, and the islands east of the peninsula and north of Velouria, so that'd sort of be the Shirlanian heartland.

So, if the use of the name would be going along with any land claims, that'd be the general area to make the claim in.

I knew where I was claiming. I have a friend at Drexel who was one of your vassels, and he pointed it out to me. I'll make sure Shirlan get's a better reputation (simply because I have the resources at my disposal to do so without breaking a sweat, now that I've named myself Emperor of Northeastern Apollonia). Heck, I might even leave it under Boris's (aka Prodigy Almighty) jurisdiction...

I thank you both for that insight into Shirlan. I didn't get much info from my friend, but now I know what I have to live up to (and that won't be too hard from what I'm reading).

I don't suppose you... well, no, I can't really ask for personal information. The thing is, there were never many people in Shirlan, and I'm driving myself nuts trying to figure out who this person is. Would he- *edits out the question* Actually, don't answer that, either. Less personal, but maybe still something he'd prefer not to have publicized. If I run into you in IM, I'll ask you there.

Anyway, I wish you luck in your Imperial ambitions. I can respect a desire to rule large chunks of the micronational world.

Oh, wow. Having had to deal with multiple accounts from the same people as a moderator before, I have something of an inkling what this must have been like, but even the things I've had to deal with... yikes, certainly nothing of that scope.

...are hugs appropriate?

Sounds like there is still a lot of pain and regret over Shirlan. I think hugs would be perfect here. *Hugs to all*

Never hug when you can flagellate.

*whips Ardashir*

You're right, this is working!

Kinky...

Truly, Ryvenna hath blessed us here. *Grabs his whip*