Shireroth

Piss off. You helped him, remember? You could have been included in that permanent banning.Besides, he has nothing to bring to this nation. The one thread he has posted forces you to concede at least that.Back to my original topic, don't make me charge you with treason. -Gryphon Avocatio- Lord Governor and Duke of all Yardistan - Minister of Research and Education, Shireroth - Shirerothian Elder - "Minsiter of Dance, Pants and Funny Walks" - SAVE THE KIWI!! - Lover of Llamas "You're intense and driven. That can lead to a lot of good things. It can also lead to high blood pressure and a closing of the arteries." -Mr. Mathews -- "I think that people who drive Hummers are clueless, and that they just have enough money to advertise it." -Peter Camejo -- "Skanky-Deutch-Ho-Bag!!" -Mike

We, the undersigned, advocate the repeal of the Imperial Decree that bans William Jesmor from Shireroth. Locke.
Can humans do what prophets say?

This is a very good argument...I will definitely consider this.but please give me time to consider all options. Kaiseress Jadie IThe Elf-Cat Kaiseress of Shireroth

"The fool neither forgives nor forgets. The naive man both forgives and forgets. The wise man forgives but does not forget" - Sufi sayingMicronational history has been, in an unfortunately large number of cases, the history of stupid people doing stupid things. Almost all of us have done something demonstrating less-than-complete respect for authority in a less-than-tasteful manner at times. Nick of Yardistan almost caused a Tymarian civil war once, not that that was a particularly difficult thing to do. Austi Scot authorized and participated in the TYSOG incident. Scott Siskind tried to destroy Baracao. Erik Metzler led a riot in Audentior that escalated into full smiley-bomb warfare. Ryan Caruso attempted to steal Shirerithian territory and names into his Berkshire Yardistan. Philip Locke caused a minor panic by pretending to be a shady organization trying to take over the world. Some of us have repented of our actions, others have not. In all cases, however, we have agreed to let bygones be bygones, and now Nick and the Tymarian PE he threatened, Erik and the Audente leader he revolted against, Austi and some of the opposition members who impeached him - all are in the same nation, living in peace and concord with one another and barely even remembering the old feuds until someone like me comes and brings them up again in a post like this to make a point.And that point is - in micronations, holding grudges over more than a couple of weeks is generally silly. Sure, there are exceptions. Bob Silby has been persona non grata in most of the civilized world for about a year now, but that's only because he repeated his offenses time and time again (I count at least four entirely different waves of terrorist attacks, each consisting of several individual strikes). Likewise, Thomas Hubert only gained his reputation after four or five coup attempts, terrorist strikes, et cetera. When a person dedicates complete absence of character and restraint in multiple incidents without any mitigating factors, certainly one can choose to be wary. But forgiving lone acts of "youthful indiscretion" is exactly what allows micronations to cohere together without everyone hating everyone else.This brings me to my point, which the more astute of you may have already guessed. A certain person, who will be referred to by the initials WJ, was banned from Shireroth a year and a half ago, seemingly forever. The crime that resulted in this banning was the deletion of the Tymarian forum, certainly a terrible act by any standards. While everyone agrees that forgiveness is a virtue, many of those who oppose WJ's reintroduction into Shireroth (and I say reintroduction because in times passed he was a full and productive member of the Imperial Republic in the Duchy of Lothlaria) argue that his crime was great enough that the usual method of wary forgiveness ought not to apply. Are there really such things as unforgiveable crimes? If so, is this one of them?On the face of it, WJ's attack on Tymaria had few lasting effects. A few days after it occurred, the board was restored completely, minus a few weeks of the most recent posts (a restoration that WJ played a major role in facilitating). Business then proceeded almost exactly as normal, with the exception of a bit of an activity boost. It can be argued that a month or so of Shireroth's history (for Shireroth was at this time a Tymarian state) was lost, but if anyone has been desperately searching in vain for a vital piece of Shireroth-related information that was posted in March 2002, I have yet to hear about it.That then, was the crime. The punishment, as decreed by Kaiser Mors, was that WJ should be expelled from Shireroth and banned forever, and his confederate, Philip Locke, should be banned for a month (a term later increased by his successor Kaiser Los to four months). After the four month term, Philip Locke was invited back into Shireroth, and now is active and productive and even bears the feudal title of Count, with no hint of his former forum-destroying ways.What is the purpose of punishment? In a society that has advanced beyond barbarism, the purpose of a punishment is not merely revenge. It is twofold: to remove the possibility of the perpetrator commiting new crimes, and to discourage other would-be criminals. WJ's punishment fit this schema very well. It removed his ability to attack Shireroth's forum by banning him from it, and it discouraged others from repeating his actions by assuring that, if they did so, they would be kicked out of the civilized micronational world (as many nations passed similar bans and condemnations). However, these two purposes can now be served equally well with WJ as a Shirerithian citizen. Unless he is given administrative powers and unlimited posts, which no sane person advocates, he will be unable to harm the Shirithian forum in any significant matter. And being banned from civilized life for a year and half is a massive disincentive - the vast majority of micronationalists, perhaps ninety percent, are not even *in* the hobby for a year and a half, and will certainly think twice before committing any action that will incapacitate them for that amount of time.So we see that keeping out WJ is no longer particularly profitable - but do we get any profit from letting him in? I would say yes. Extra citizens are always useful - extra active citizens doubly so. But Shireroth already has (dare I say it?) enough citizens - what will we gain from WJ in particular. We will gain experience. Shireroth's new citizens are all intelligent and creative, but few of them have any memory of the "good" old days, and fewer really know the intricacies of the micronational system or the micronational world. The more experienced citizens we have, the more quickly the experience can filter down to the newer citizens, and the more veterans we have, the more there will be a historical continuity from the traditions of the past to the Shireroth of today. Admitting an old "new" citizen to Shireroth, or, should WJ not seek citizenship, just a tourist, would do much to ease the strain of all the new people coming into our system. And we need only look at the fantastically successful career of Gman Russell to prove just how well an old Shirerithian can reintegrate into the system after a long absence.The objection will be raised that Mors' old decree banned WJ forever, and it's bad karma (or whatever) to go against old decrees, especially those of a monarch as venerable and respected as Mors I is even to this day. The simple fact is that a Kaiserial decree invalidates all older Kaiserial decrees, and that this method has been used since time immemorial. Kaiseress Jadie could simply commute Mors' penalty to a banning of the year and a half that has already been served.In fact, there is a historical precedent for this. Jason Steffke was banned a few weeks after WJ for the same crime - that of deleting Tymarian history. The ban was intended to be of indefinite duration. After Jason had calmed down, gotten out of crazy person mode (or at least as far out of crazy person mode as can be expected for a veteran micronationalist) and ceased to do anything else stupid for a while, Kaiser Los commuted this decree to the few weeks already served, and allowed Jason back into Shirerithian society. This decision was generally applauded by everyone as the sensible thing to do. Of course, Jason later became an integral part of Shirerithian society and was even made Kaiser, although of course he was absolutely awful at it. But the point is that through commuting a decree when it became clear that the decree was no longer necessary, the Shirerithian justice system was preserved while the Shirerithian community gained a very productive new member.Do we still hold a grudge against Karnali for the role of some of their members in the Anarchy21 attacks? No - in fact, we have had a treaty with them for months. Do we still hold a grudge against Julian Starr for his frequent anti-Shireroth comments? No - in fact, most of you have probably forgotten who Julian Starr even is. Do we still hold a grudge against the Baracaoans for their threats of war against us and eventual seizure of the Free Republic from our protection? No - in fact, they used to be one of our strongest allies, we mourned along with everyone else when they died, and now it seems one of their former citizens is well on his way to become Baron of Lunaris *there are some very embarassed whispers from the audience* And yet each of these events took place AFTER WJ's single attack on Tymaria, which was not even intended as a slight against Shireroth. What sort of sense does this make? How many of you know WJ personally? (I have talked with him in real life and found him to be a very pleasant character) Can you really judge a person when you only know of their worst act? (Shane Odlum once hacked the PBF website without any real reason, but that doesn't make him less of a living god who must be loved and revered by all). How do you intend to get to know him if he is banned from Shireroth without a chance to have his say?I, Demosthenes, have only appeared in micronations in this guise a few times. Though the last two were in Menelmacar, the one before that was to urge microworld-wide action against WJ for his crimes. I have seen what he can do and what he did, and I understood the need for action at that point. Knowing what has changed, however, I can find it in my heart to give him another chance. Can you?Unban WJ from Shireroth, with a steep posting restriction until he has proven himself. Grant him citizenship if he desires it, with an indefinite naturalization period until we are certain he means well. It offers no risk whatsoever and a great possibility of gain - imagine what could happen if he used his powers for good, instead of evil. Shireroth can either prove itself to be a regressive, hidebound nation that alienates potential citizens for little to no reason, or it can show that the Kaisers are merciful as well as just, accept WJ without any loss of reputation or safety, and allow an old Shirerithian to finally come home. The choice is yours. Good night, and Gahg bless. Edited by: Demosthenes1 at: 10/15/03 7:24 pm

Quote:"The fool neither forgives nor forgets. The naive man both forgives and forgets. The wise man forgives but does not forget" - Sufi sayingand the mad man forgets, but never forgives war trophy liberated from Babkha by the Federated NORworthic Liberation Devision (FNORD)

Kinda like why i forgot exactly why Warvoid and I don't get along? *thinks back to Tymarian Near-Civil war that I started* Oh yeah...never mind.I follow the law of the Kaiser. Under the law, anybody who offers safe harbour to he who is in question is to be castigated. Regardless of what we think now, it is still law. -Gryphon Avocatio- Lord Governor and Duke of all Yardistan - Minister of Research and Education, Shireroth - Shirerothian Elder - "Minsiter of Dance, Pants and Funny Walks" - SAVE THE KIWI!! - Lover of Llamas "You're intense and driven. That can lead to a lot of good things. It can also lead to high blood pressure and a closing of the arteries." -Mr. Mathews -- "I think that people who drive Hummers are clueless, and that they just have enough money to advertise it." -Peter Camejo -- "Skanky-Deutch-Ho-Bag!!" -Mike

Entirely true. We are suggesting changing the law. There is no law against changing the law, and after it is changed, it won't be law anymore. Anyone who advocates disobeying the law without it being changed through the proper channels deserves what he or she will almost certainly get.

I do not share your Socratic loyalty to laws. I am of the school of thought that believes that just because something is does not necessarily mean that it should be, and that a little civil disobedience is, sometimes, not only acceptable, but necessary. Locke.
Can humans do what prophets say?

I'll agree about some things Scott said.. but in the end, cannot agree to this unbanning bussiness.The man attacked the nation we were part of, and took out history of ours.. (the reason it isn't sought, is cause it isn't remembed... Fax made his first appearance in that time, we have no record of it anymore....) The first 5 decrees were destroyed, if I recall, by him... But I was lucky enough to be able to remake them.. either that.. or my numbers are off and it's decrees 6+(6-12 are missing...) that we lost due to him.. and I couldn't replacee. It wasn't Tymaria that we are punishing him for, it is the damage he commited to SHireroth.And if we forgive him? Why not forgive whoever it was, that ran Anarchy21 (no scott, we haven't forgiven them, at least I haven't... we fought a long battle against them...We may not hold the nation those people were part of responcible, but I doubt we've forgiven the people...).. and why not forgive the guy that caused us to lose decrees...29-48., the Goldshire party, all of Goldshire, the Ministry of Trade, and Immigration and such.. Why not forgive him too? Let us be like those fool Apollo's who forgave everyone.. and got kicked by them for it.. (I'm not trying to be insulting to any apollo people...)...I mean, just look at his attempt to ask to be unbanned, it was rude, and disrespectful.. he than made a thread that made fun of the Babkans, by sending an official post of theirs through.. babblefish or whatever that thing is called... (or at least it looked like it...) This man hasn't repented, he's proven to have no respect for this nation, why should we let him in?As for making a point? and that being one of the points of punishment. What kind of message does it send when we repeal our harshest punishment, that we gave for our most hanus crime? Weakness. "Oh look, I can do evil things, wait a while. than complain loudly, and get some help, and I'll be let back in..."And how do we know he's not just planning to get access to the nation, stay queit for a month, behave.. than attack and seek vengence...? I've got people asking me to stop being so opposed to this, but why should I personally? He's shown nothing but contempt for me, in what little of his tripe I've bothered to read. I could say more, but I shant. He shouldn't be trusted, he has repented, he's still hte same person, or is he gonna claim, like Hubert, that it was just a character.Hell, if my fading memory recalls.. he went and cause trouble in nation other than Shireroth/Tymaria when he was cast out... Just 1 thing.. right... And I don't remember him helping restore Tymaria.. I think he sent a request in, but that doesn't negate the fact of what he did. I'm not even sure he was able to send in a request, since he wasn't the EzOp.... Kaiser Erik of Shireroth.Duke of BrookshireNot dead yet...

His insults to Babkha were bitter, but understandable considering that he is being asked to grovel to get back into his nation. I think that this is more of a personal issue than a legal issue, and its a shame, because ultimately personal issues should be kept out of leadership/ War Trophy Liberated From Menelmacar god of warProud Owner of a Real Horrorshow High-Speed, Low-Drag Sig!

There is a point in what Erik says. *he* didn't even ask nicely to be un-banned.....however there are people vouching for him. I do believe in forgiving people...however I need a reason to forgive people. People say that time is enough. In some cases it is...time doesn't heal all wounds.So if *he* can IM me and give me a legitmate reason to un-ban him I will consider it. Kaiseress Jadie IThe Elf-Cat Kaiseress of Shireroth

i think he needs to learn a little humility maybe? a little politeness can go a long way.... Friends help friends move. REAL friends help friends hide the bodies.......and there's ALOT of bodies.....

Let's face it, none of us in micronations are particularly humble and polite. In fact, I can't imagine how a humble person could make there way into a hobby in which you call yourself a king or at the very least a baron. Shirerithians are famous for being confrontational and saying exactly what they mean...note Erik's old sig quote "Never use a Boomist as a diplomat"...there was a REASON I said that way back when. If we didn't allow people into Shireroth unless they were all nice and friendly, we probably wouldn't have any citizens except maybe Jadie.

I cannot believe I am saying this (especially after his cynical attitude towards Babkha) - but I kindly ask the Kaiser and Kaiseress to unban WJ. True, I was not here during the whole Tymaria mess and so I cannot really say what damage WJ did to the Imperial Republic. But the sayings "bury the hatchet" and "let bygones be bygones" come to mind. I was born and raised Christian, and I believe forgiveness is critical part of our human character. We are not human until we have forgiven someone. It is not anger or hatred that make us who we are, but it is our mercy and compassion. To those ends we should give WJ the second-chance he morally deserves considering other cases that Scott brought up. Does forgiveness mean we sanction the actions of WJ? No, not at all. What was wrong then is wrong now but we should be able to move on and no longer live in past. If he's an ass (as he's proved to be), let's hit him with a posting restriction and let him be on his way. We are not better than he is by being obstinate and unwavering in this seemingly simple matter. Show him that we are better. Unban him.

May I remind you that many of the more conservative christian groups support the death penalty. Is that truly human forgiveness?But back to my point, Erik has reminded of a crucial and important part of the case to maintain the banishment of the unmentionable. If we are to unban him, it causes the government to lose part of its strength. The Unmentionable is banned not only for his crimes but because he serves as an example as well. Now, to keep him banned would say that we follow through with what we set down as law. Mr. Hesam Jandahar as an outsider has noticed that our law-enforcement is a majour problem. He says that it appears we have no organisation and that we do not enforce our laws. Logically, he deduces that our laws have no power because not all of them are enforced. Now, he could not possibly be the only person out there that sees shireroth that way (hell, I think he's almost completely correct).We have an Antigonal problem here (i need to get sophocles out of my head). If we keep The Unmentionable banned,we show that we have a strong and unwavering government but we shall come off as cruel in some way. If we unban him, we appear more humane and personable, but the government loses credibility that it will follow through on decrees that things shall be one way "forever."Aside from this, his demeaner was rude and obnoxious. He intentially insulted others. This is a more aesthetic reason for not letting him back, but none the less, it is a valid one IMHO. -Gryphon Avocatio- Lord Governor and Duke of all Yardistan - Minister of Research and Education, Shireroth - Shirerothian Elder - "Minsiter of Dance, Pants and Funny Walks" - SAVE THE KIWI!! - Lover of Llamas "You're intense and driven. That can lead to a lot of good things. It can also lead to high blood pressure and a closing of the arteries." -Mr. Mathews -- "I think that people who drive Hummers are clueless, and that they just have enough money to advertise it." -Peter Camejo -- "Skanky-Deutch-Ho-Bag!!" -Mike

Quote:If we didn't allow people into Shireroth unless they were all nice and friendly, we probably wouldn't have any citizens except maybe Jadie.I TAKE OFFENSE TO THAT!!! IM THE NICEST FREAKIN' PERSON YOU'LL EVER MEET IN YOUR TINY, MEANINGLES, PATHETIC EXISTANCE!!!!I, AM A NIIIIIIIIIIICEEE GUUUUUUUYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote: Let's face it, none of us in micronations are particularly humble and politei am very humble war trophy liberated from Babkha by the Federated NORworthic Liberation Devision (FNORD)

The way I'm looking at this (sorry Erik, but its the best ref I can use), its something like the American penal system. Unmentionable could easily be considered up for parole. The board judges whether to consent based on the severity of the crime and the sincerity of the criminal in reforming. (Note: I get all of this from what I've seen in movies, such as Shawshank Redemption)In the case of Unmentionable, it would appear that the crime was severe. In addition, his attitude seems to show a lack of reform. All this together makes even me, one of those who wasn't here when he committed his crime, reluctant to agree to his unbanning. Birrrrrrrrrrrd Maaaaaaaaan!!!!!~The Solitary Poet of GoldshireEdited by: Solitary Poet 8 at: 10/16/03 9:08 pm

just to help clarifythis is not a matter of "do we unban him?"it is a matter of"shoule the Crown repeal the law that banned him?" war trophy liberated from Babkha by the Federated NORworthic Liberation Devision (FNORD)

I have reached my decision.He-who-shall-not-be-mentioned is still banned as he has not given me any good reason for me to suspend his sentence. This decision is final and I will close any thread that starts up this subject again or mentions his name...end of story.edit//made it thread closing instead of deleting. Kaiseress Jadie IThe Elf-Cat Kaiseress of ShirerothEdited by: Kaiseress Jadie at: 10/16/03 10:38 pm