Shireroth

Article 2, Section B, Clause 4

From:

In order for a standard bill or act to be considered passed, one half (1/2) of all votes distributed to the Nobles must be cast in the affirmative or both one half (1/2) of all nobles eligible to vote must have cast their votes, and one half (1/2) of all votes cast must be in the affirmative. Any bill which fails to meet these requirements shall not be passed.

To:

In order for a bill or act to be considered passed, at least one half (50%) of all votes distributed to the Nobles must be cast, and at least one half (50%) of all votes cast must be in the affirmative. Any bill which fails to meet these requirements shall not be passed.

Reason: Clarification and tightening of procedure; removal of wordiness.

I think it would be better, as a power balance, to have it 50% of all votes cast with 50% of all independent nobles having voted. Richard LyonYansha Elaer Kyon gef ShanPernem kahn gef kuymal per varga stiPernem kahn gef varga per kuymal sti

Blah. One of the most important parts of Timed Democracy was a little-to-no quorum. A quorum corrupts the efficiency of the government by limiting the Landsraad in times of inactivity. There is no guarentee that a majority of our nobility will be active - think about it. A lack of a quorum will help promote nobles to vote if they want a say in the vote. Bill Dusch - Archon of Soloralism - Founder of TelikosCitizen of ShirerothBaron of AntyaProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'We.....are.....not....FANTASY!>?!POE' - Scott Siskind, on hearing Bill Dusch say that Shireroth's theme is percieved to be Fiction-Fantasy based";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="'I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock.' - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'No, you've changed too, Bill. Instead of being the fragmented, annoying and immature 16-year-old, you've graduated to being a well-spoken, annoying and immature 19-year-old. Congratulations.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);

Okay. What about adding a piece to this one? Something like, "Votes not cast by the end of a voting period shall not be counted against quorum, as the voting parties in question have voted "Abstain" by not being present"?

Maybe... on the other hand, though, keep in mind that that kind of thing could have a negative side. If there's no need for a quorum, people might not be so inclined to show up even if they're available.Still, it might not be too bad in most cases. If we did that, though, I would suggest including a sort of optional provision for a quorum. For example, if there was a particularly important bill that the Praetor or the Kaiser believed there should be real majority support for, they could invoke the quorum provision to require that a certain percentage of nobles had to vote on it in order for it to pass. It wouldn't be the sort of thing that would be designed to be used often, but it could be there if we needed it.

What about including any noble who had debated the bill in the quorum.Say the Duke of Elwynn ( ) posts a comment to a bill, but doesn't vote, then he should be counted towards the quorum but as an abstaining vote. But if the Duke of Naudia'Diva neither comments or votes, then he shouldn't be counted towards the quorum. Richard LyonYansha Elaer Kyon gef ShanPernem kahn gef kuymal per varga stiPernem kahn gef varga per kuymal sti

Well, the thing of a quorum is that it slows down bills tremendously. And the downside of a lack of a quorum is actually a justified advantage - simply put, if someone is lazy enough as to not vote on an issue when he is there, then he should have to be willing take that as a responsibility to lose his say on the issue. Why should the nobility of any sorts complain over an issue if he had an issue to make his voice heard, and refused to? And even if the noble at hand is LoA, he could appoint a steward and whatnot. Bill Dusch - Archon of Soloralism - Founder of TelikosCitizen of ShirerothBaron of AntyaProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'We.....are.....not....FANTASY!>?!POE' - Scott Siskind, on hearing Bill Dusch say that Shireroth's theme is percieved to be Fiction-Fantasy based";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="'I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock.' - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'No, you've changed too, Bill. Instead of being the fragmented, annoying and immature 16-year-old, you've graduated to being a well-spoken, annoying and immature 19-year-old. Congratulations.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);

I think Bill has a point, and imagine that a duchy boycotts the Landsraad. That duchy's power is so great that it controls many votes, and if it boycotts the Landsraad, then not a single bill will be able to pass.

I agree. The quorum should be abolished and only used as a praetorial (or kaiseral) action in the case of a really important bill. There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

WE NEED A CONSTITUTION!

Okay, what about changing it to:Quote:In order for a bill or act to be considered passed, at least one half (50%) of all votes cast must be in the affirmative. In special instances of great importance, the Kaiser, the Praetor, or two Nobles may call a quorum-vote. If such a quorum-vote is called, at least 3/4 (75%) of all votes distributed to the Nobles must be cast, and at least one half (50%) of all votes cast must be in the affirmative. Any bill which fails to meet these requirements shall not be passed.

Fair enough. Bill Dusch - Archon of Soloralism - Founder of TelikosCitizen of ShirerothBaron of AntyaProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'We.....are.....not....FANTASY!>?!POE' - Scott Siskind, on hearing Bill Dusch say that Shireroth's theme is percieved to be Fiction-Fantasy based";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="'I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock.' - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'No, you've changed too, Bill. Instead of being the fragmented, annoying and immature 16-year-old, you've graduated to being a well-spoken, annoying and immature 19-year-old. Congratulations.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);

I approve whole-heartedly now. There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

I'm not sure.I'd like to have 50% of the independent nobles voting in favour, and 50% of the total sum of votes being in favour. That way we can avoid a duchy being too powerful.

*Likes the Kaiseress' latest draft*I don't think that keeping Duchies from becoming too powerful should be an issue. The new feudalism is about encouraging the formation of larger subdivisions from smaller ones; requiring the affirmative vote of independent nobles would work against that. Duchies have the most population, Duchies have the most votes; and with all due respect to independent Baronies that have arisen or may arise later, it's the number of votes that should decide a bill. Requiring 50% of independent nobles to agree would allow a small minority of nobles to derail a bill regardless of the other support it has, which seems to me to be a poor way of organizing things.

Agreed. There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

Just out of curiosity, why is it 50% and not 50% + 1 vote? (i.e. a majority)

Dunno. I think the Praetor gets a tiebreaker vote, so maybe it was thought unnecessary to require a half plus one vote from the nobles.

*scratches head*

Ok, I just noticed... If something is 50% ayes, it currently passes, but isn't there also somewhere that states if it's 50/50, the Praetor has a tiebreaker vote? That tiebreaker doesn't necessarily have to be in the affirmative...

This topic is now open for voting. Vote closes at 12:20 AM Saturday.

Duchy of Antica votes AYE (10), but notes that there should still be a clarification made somewhere on the exactly 50/50 situation.

Actually, even 50%+1 can be sorta dangerous. Take for example this situation, ignoring quorum:

There is only one vote, in the affirmative. No other votes. 50%+1 of 0.5 is 1.5, making the bill fail, despite it clearly being a majority. So it would be better to make it 50%+1/2, or simply 50%+dx, where dx is an infintesimal increase in vote, because in all cases in which X < 2*B in the vote system (.5X+B), there will be a similar problem.

Duchy of Naudia'Diva votes AYE (10)

in order to get the basic change through, although I agree with Delphi that a change will be needed. Something along the lines of "more than 50% of votes in the affirmative" would probably do it... it sounds a little more vague, but would avoid Bill's +1 problem.

This bill passes, with 20 in favor and none against.