Shireroth

Procedures B. to be added to as follows:

B. Votes
1. Each noble of Patrician Rank is allocated 5 votes.
2. Each noble of Equestrian Rank is allocated 2 votes.
3. Each noble of Civitas Rank is allocated 1 vote.
4. Anyone with multiple titles of nobility, of whatever rank, must choose only one of them to determine zir Landsraad vote.

Procedures D.4 to be amended as follows:

4. When casting a vote a noble must state the title under which zie chooses to vote, and how many votes zie is casting.

Procedures H. to be added to and amended as follows:

H. Emissaries
1. A voting noble may appoint a representative known as an Emissary.
2. An Emissary shall be granted the vote and voice of a noble, to represent that noble within the Landsraad.
3. A noble's Emissary shall represent a noble only on behalf of the title under which that noble has chosen to vote, and no other, and shall be allotted votes accordingly.
4. While a noble has an Emissary appointed and active within the Landsraad, said noble may only speak or vote through that Emissary.
5. A noble may temporarily revoke the status of an appointed Emissary for a single debate, at which point the Emissary must retire from the debate without comment.
6. If an Emissary has been forced to retire from a debate by the Noble they represent, they cannot return to the debate, nor may another Emissary be appointed.
7. A noble's Emissary must reside within the subdivision that the Noble resides within or rules.
8. A noble may only have one Emissary appointed at any given time.

Jarl in Asantelian AYE (1)

I still disagree with this in principle, but now my Margrave title has been withdrawn, I should consult with the Seanad on this matter. I will cast a vote when that is done.

Also, if you intend to treat multiple titles in this way, you need a part in the lawbook which says that only one title will be considered active for the purposes of Imperial duty, fees etc.

No, Andreas, we really don't need such a provision in the Lawbook. This only applies to Landsraad voting, which means that only an amendment to the Procedures is needed.

Jarl of Lakhesis, AYE (1).

So basically you are saying that people have to waste the votes of their titles if they become Head of House; but they still need to pay fees and taxes on it etc?

A provision was in Erik's original bill regarding it:

e. While suspended a title cannot grant any rights or privileges from, or obligation to, the Imperial Government.

It still remains pertinent, particularly if (as has been mooted earlier) we tax titles or base army sizes on land and title. If, for example, we were in the situation of a few days ago - me holding the title of Margrave and Baron - and if there were a tax on hereditary titles similar to a land tax; then if the Landsraad will not let the Baron votes be used, why should a tax be paid on the Baron title?

We don't even have a tax on titles yet.

I still believe that non-hereditary titles should be merged into hereditary ones and lower into higher. That would remove this "problem" completely.

I have intended to propose a tax (read: Request a regular contribution from Imperial Nobles) on hereditary titles for the last couple days, but being still in the middle of exams (two days to go ) I haven't had the mental time to write it up properly. But that aside, what the multiple title act showed us was that it is necessary to close these loopholes when we create legislature and not when they become a problem, so with that in mind, I think it would be useful and simple enough to add something like the above to the Lawbook.

If you don't like having that many titles, that's fine. Just don't let that cause you to prevent those who do setting up the current system in a way that will work long term.

Hmm, rereading that last sentence in my head, not sure it makes sense, but I hope it's clearly enough.

And you completely ignored my simple, workable solution.

I kinda agree with Andreas, but I still support this bill. Andreas, you can always put a provision in the tax so that it only counts one title.


Mortis, AYE (5).

Jarl of Sunderspray, AYE (1).

Kalir abstains (5).

Malliki Tosha wrote:And you completely ignored my simple, workable solution.

So we go to having one or two titles in total? It's a solution, yes, but it redesigns the whole system, and I thought this was meant to be a tweaking the system reign instead of a redesigning the whole system reign. For that reason, an iatrogenic solution doesn't seem the appropriate one here, so I took it as a long term preference from you (like Kildare and getting more land).

EDIT: To avoid a double post:
For House Kildare, I vote NAY (5) to the bill in this form, reflecting the somewhat malleable view of the Seanad.

One or two titles in total? Please explain.

Malliki Tosha wrote:I still believe that non-hereditary titles should be merged into hereditary ones and lower into higher.

I took this to mean "merge hereditary into non-hereditary" - ie go back to three titles; and merge lower into higher - ie have less than three. That left me with one or two. Which seemed to me an iatrogenic solution. Of course, if you meant something different, I'd be delighted for you to elaborate.

I meant that if you have a Barony and get a Duchy, the Barony is merged into the Duchy.

I think I see what he is saying. The higher title will take over the smaller. If you get lands as a Baron, and then get lands as a Duke. The baron lands would now be part of your Duchy... though.. that might make no sense depending on how you get the titles.

Yes, exactly. And I was talking about Barony and Duchy as titles.

If you are Baron of House Kildare, and you get created Duke, the Baron title is merged into the Duke title. This basically means that you are only your latest title.

Passes: 8-5-5.