Shireroth

Posted: **Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:29 pm**

Imperial Proclamation AII-2

A Proclamation on Various Subjects

So, this has officially turned into Bash the Kaiseress Week. The main critique seems to be both my general management style as well as my unwillingness to move us back to the duchy system. I think that a bit of Jacobus conflict is thrown in there to spice things up a bit more. I will try to address some things in this proclamation that will hopefully make people a bit more content about being here.

First, when it comes to my management style, it is deliberately a bit more confrontational now compared to during my last rule. Anandja I was a hippie after all, and acted like one most of the time too. I, on the other hand (yeah I know, same person, blah blah), am not a hippie. I try to act in the best interest of Shireroth, not just one group of citizens or myself. The easy way out for me would have been to reinstitute the duchy system which would have saved me a lot of grief. The reason I didn't was because I do not see that as being in Shireroth's best interest. The duchy system had become stale. A large amount of land was unused, but still ruled by barons and dukes, and sometimes even inactive counts. It also took absolutely no effort to gain and hold a county or even a title. I myself handed them out like candy, in the hopes that perhaps something would be done with them. I was lucky to have three active counts in my barony at the same time for a brief moment, SyrWilliam (Payne) in Benacia, Kingsbury in Amarr and Oze in Highpass. This was an exception though, and usually counties were just inactive boards. So cue the House system. I didn't like it at first, not at all. I had done some barony level development in Lakhesis that I wanted to keep, but I agreed to cede Highpass and Benacia voluntarily, and kept Amarr and LTN.

Since then I have come to embrace the House system, since it allows for more politics, more intrigue (if you people could actually try a bit of inter-house intrigue instead of just bitching about counties you've lost) and more development. Before, you got a county because you existed. You could be the least active micronationalist around, but someone would still throw a county at you since, hey, we had them in such large amounts it was ridiculous. Now you get a county to hold, in trust, from the Imperial Government provided that you aid in its development. This is why Erik revoked a lot of them before and why I continued that tradition with my latest reclaim. What does this mean? It means that in order to get a county, you need to either have strong historical ties to it or promise to develop it. It does not suffice anymore to just "be". It is also the House system that allowed me to form my own House, see House Kalirion rise and become the strongest one, see the brief House Yardis, but also to see Kalir fall down again and the rise of Mortis and Kildare. Kildare has risen from the second-smallest House to the second largest in a very short time, all thanks to the House system. And in case you haven't noticed, there is a reason why I am of the Line of Mortis, not Grifos this time... (I'll let you ponder that one) Now, I don't really care what you call the land in your House. If you are a Duke and want to call it a Duchy, you can. If you are a Baron and want to call it a Barony, you can. You have complete authority to do whatever you want that is legal. And look at Kildare. They develop the counties they hold, and therefore they are tied for first place when it comes to land held.

I hope that the ones of you that do not support the House system at least will be able to tolerate it until you see its benefits. I know that I could have handled some things better, but to be constantly reminded of the same thing over and over again is not a constructive dialogue. If you want me to change my mind, present good and sound arguments, not repetition. I won't change my mind about this however, since I've heard all arguments for the old system and I really do believe that this is better for Shireroth, in the long run.

Now, for the Jake issue. He and I actually go a rather long way back, at least from my point of view. When I first joined Cyberia in 1999, he was the inofficial Anti-Christ. His offence? He ran a half-troll half-serious micronation called the Federal Republic of Cyberia. Pretty harmless, but not in the views of mighty Cyberia. Anyway, some time after that, we started talking in private and I found out that he's really a pretty nice guy. He does have a tendency to 'claim-and-run' though. He sweeps in, claims the throne and promises to turn time back a couple of years when everything was "Traditional". We still have our traditions. We still have a Kaiser(ess), we still have the Landsraad, we still frown on democracy, and we are still the greatest nation on Micras. This does not change merely because we change the way we organize our subdivisions. To believe that is to not have much faith in Shireroth or its people. I only wish that we all learned to discuss rather than to scream, since most arguments here have a tendency to descend into just that, a scream fest. We all have to realize that no one wants to destroy Shireroth, or that there even is all that much that could destroy us. We have been around for over 10 years. Disbanding the Duchy system isn't going to change that.

Yes, back to Jake. I got sidetracked. The reason I removed his vote in the Landsraad was dual. First, it was stupid of me to put four voting members in the Landsraad, and as the last one in, he was the first one out. Second, I made a deal with him to stop opposing me when I ascended the throne in exchange for certain concessions. Letting CJ in, a spot on the IAC and in the Landsraad were the premises of the deal. I honored them all, with the unspoken expectation that they would be handled in a responsible way. CJ hasn't fucked up yet, so I consider that one to be working pretty well. As for the IAC, well, Jake knows my position on the Duchy system and he knows that I will not change my mind. If I then get irritated for him constantly reminding me of the issue is not to give advice, it's to nag. And now for the second part of the Landsraad removal. Voting against a vital bill to support Crown finances just because one wants to "stir the pot" and because one is opposed to the House system is not using the seat in a responsible manner. Should I have qualified my concession in that way? Perhaps I should have, but should I have to? Does it not come automatically that positions of trust are held in trust?

I know that I have acted foolishly from time to time and I apologize for that, as well as for any harsh words said. With that, I want to invite everyone to come with constructive critique of the House system, and not just complaints. If we are to look to the best interest of Shireroth, not ourselves, we need to work together, not against each other.

Thank you for reading this, admittedly, very long proclamation.

May the Gods save Shireroth.

Posted: **Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:35 pm**

I may be able to use mobile service. If so, I will answer this in detail at that time. Or it might have to wait.

Posted: **Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:26 pm**

When the House system was first proposed, I was quite keen on it. It made sense for Duchies to rise and fall in terms of Landsraad vote. And there were some counties I could definitely see being held to ransom by practically dead individuals (eg Norfolk).

However, the way I interpreted it and the way Erik intended it (and you have subsequently interpreted it, your niftiness) are somewhat different. I envisaged a lot more Margraves and Thanes (I expected a big Landsraad made up of all our active and interested members); and I envisaged more land being held by the Houses more similar to the previous Duchies. In fact, if I'm honest, I envisaged legitimacy to me holding all of Atterock in my own right; and not just as a Baron who developed bits of his Barony when no other counts were around. But the bar for county development seems to have been placed higher than I thought - either that or the transistional arrangements weren't good enough. And so we have the result that people feel that their historical general development of the Duchy or Barony is now forfeit because 90% of the counties have been taken away; and we find that people aren't too keen to leap up and double their development in Shireroth because 50% of their current development no longer 'counts' for land.

Oh, and that whole House Yardis thing? That was messed up. House loyalty, guys.

You know I'd like more land; and I think you also know that I'm trying to work within the system and that I recognise you are trying to do what you think is right for the system (I just disagree with what you think is right). However, if I were to level two criticisms against the House system as it currently comes across:

Staring over my shoulder - I at least have the constant feeling that there's someone staring over my shoulder and that if I don't do stuff in the Landsraad and in the Imperial level I'm going to lose my Margraveship; and if I don't do extra land development and stuff outside the House level, I'm going to lose my existing counties; and that even if I manage to find time to do up a wiki article (which appears to be the be all and end all of county development) on the counties I've already developed (Melangia, Hallucination and Raynor Isles, for a start) and actually get given them; then I'm going to lose them soon after because Sakat knows if it's hard to fit in extra stuff on one county once you've developed it and are constantly looking in fear over your shoulder for what you have to be taken away; by PRH it's hard to do three or four or five.
So yeah - it would be great if once you had something you kept it apart from going wildly inactive, and didn't have to worry about losing it.

A ruler is as good as their followers - Define fief and feudalism how you like; in practical terms, feudal monarchs only lasted if they had support of at least some of their lords, and in a micronation, a ruler needs the support of at least some of the populace. Your 'it's my land, you're developing it for me' attitude is both annoying and seems stupid to me. If we all get up and walk out, you'll be the legitimate Kaiser, yes. A Kaisership of one. While you *may* have been right that in the past we held land at the Kaisership's pleasure; in practical terms, counts held land at the *Duke's* pleasure, and the Kaisership was held at the pleasure of at least some of the Duchies - as evidenced by the times when enough of us have rebelled against the 'legitimate' heir and put in a new one.

Those would be my criticisms of the House system. Please, as above, take them from me attempting to work within the system but not agreeing with all the premises of the system. And my major joys in Shireroth being IAC, developing Atterock, and the economy.

Posted: **Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:42 pm**

I do think that the duchy system had become stale. It was I, after all, that first suggested that we remove them back when everyone was accuing me of being a moron and having only stupid ideas (see also: Jonas as Kaiser, upcoming slump. 3/3 baby) But the system I envisioned was where land divisions didn't matter. With the house system, we essentially have randomly thrown together duchies but with most everyone still tied to land. I don't see this as a meaningful step forward. With people getting "core counties" and then othe counties merged into them then what's really changed? That's not your fault, of course - you inherited the system when you took the throne. But you haven't done a whole heck of a lot to make it less chaotic on people.

On the upside I'm having fun screwing with the University so that's cool.

Posted: **Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:49 pm**

I'm usually one of the first people to call you on it when you're being a jerk, and you're not being a jerk as Kaiseress. In fact, your Kaiseress personality is a heck of a lot easier to get along with than your regular personality

I was very doubtful about the House system at first, but I was thinking about it last night and it really does offer some advantages:

1. It allows easier movement from House to House than there was from Duchy to Duchy, while keeping any developed lands.
2. It's much easier to form and dissolve Houses than it was to form and dissolve Duchies (see: Harvey and his horrible Amity catastrophe)
3. There is less confusion about how Major and Minor Houses fit together than there was about Duchies and Baronies.
4. There are better procedures for dealing with an inactive House than there were with dealing with an inactive Duchy.

So Erik, if you're reading this, I'm going to admit you were right about the House system being an improvement. Know how I said I'd give you a little while to prove it to me before I started rebelling and causing trouble? Well, consider it proven.

I'm disappointed but not surprised at the lack of House intrigue. When the Kaiserial succession depended on it, there was a minor incentive to merge houses a little, but I think it was right to return to the old succession method. Now there's not a lot of reason for intrigue at all, and I don't see that changing unless the Kaiser can provide one.

Andreas' main concern seems to be my own: that I feel like my county is a Gods-given right, and even if the Kaiser has been benevolent and let me keep it, I don't even like the thought that it *could* be taken away - combined with a sense of loss at losing other counties that were formerly in its "sphere of influence". It would be interesting if someone thought of a system to distribute power over unclaimed counties; and this could be a means of generating House intrigue. For example, if House Kildare (which controls Asantelian) House Mortis (which controls Shirekeep) and House Kalir (which controls Eliria) were all jockeying for position in the neutral county of Wintergleam, maybe represented by Wintergleam having an NPC governor from one or another of the families. No idea how to flesh it out, but it's worth considering.

I do think there's some role for Duchies, maybe a parallel role, but that will take me a lot of time to sort out and since I'm heir now I'll wait until I'm Kaiser to deal with it.

I have no strong opinion on the Jake issue except to say that I think both Jake and the Kaiseress have Shireroth's best interests at heart and it's too bad they have to be fighting.

Oh, and good move with CJ. I think he'll turn out okay, and considering that all of the other new citizens we've recruited for in the past year have ended up leaving for one reason or another, it's nice to have someone who's actually demonstrated that they *want* to be here

You have been an excellent Kaiseress so far, and when the new ForumList numbers come out we'll have the activity numbers to prove it.

Posted: **Tue Jun 01, 2010 3:06 pm**

Thank you Scott, I really appreciate it.

The only thing I'm going to say is DON'T WORRY!!!!!

The only counties that have been removed were undeveloped ones where the holder had a weak claim. The things I say about me owning the land is partly true, but mostly IC. We need to move away from the perpetual hold over a piece of land and into the responsible free-hold. As for Scott and Andreas, you have done so much with your counties that the only reason I would even consider revoking them is if you leave Shireroth. I thought that came across in the DecreeBook amendment, but apparently it didn't. There are many wonderful examples of county development around and I find no reason to mess with that. I'm willing to amend the rules with a 'lose it if you leave' provision for historically held counties, that is, you lose it if you leave Shireroth, but not for anything else. With that said, I'm talking about where you have personally developed a county. I gave up Amarr for instance because I had done nothing with it.

Posted: **Tue Jun 01, 2010 4:06 pm**

Thanks, your niftiness. That assurance makes me feel more comfortable about future land development (and getting around to reclaiming the rest of Atterock).

Posted: **Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:56 pm**

Random comments-

Kildare has risen from the second-smallest House to the second largest in a very short time, all thanks to the House system.

Kildare is great, but this is in spite of the House System, not because of it. Hasn't anyone noticed, the leadership of Kildare is mostly opposed to it? It's not surprising that the more vocal opponents of oppression would band together to defend something that stands for justice and tradition?

Now, for the Jake issue. He and I actually go a rather long way back, at least from my point of view. When I first joined Cyberia in 1999, he was the inofficial Anti-Christ. His offence? He ran a half-troll half-serious micronation called the Federal Republic of Cyberia. Pretty harmless, but not in the views of mighty Cyberia. Anyway, some time after that, we started talking in private and I found out that he's really a pretty nice guy.

Well, the Federal Republic of Cyberia wasn't founded until August 10, 2005. He probably is remembering the Restored Commonwealth of Cyberia, and it's predecessor, the Imperial Dominion of Free Cyberia. The one of the admitted purposes of these was the annoyance of the VCC leadership and the resultant entertainment to be derived therefrom. That, and every time they banned a log-in, it was time to invent a new character or two, and that was fun. There were other reasons, of course. The pomposity needed to be popped on occasion.

And yes, Mike is a pretty good guy. Anandja II I could do without, but Mike is smart, funny and capable, although we both seem to revert to our gelatinous cyberian forms when we get in to conflict with each other.

Yes, back to Jake. I got sidetracked. The reason I removed his vote in the Landsraad was dual. First, it was stupid of me to put four voting members in the Landsraad, and as the last one in, he was the first one out.

Yup. Suuurrree. Would have been just as easy to have added a member. Result would have been the same, but honour would've been intact. As far as the IAC goes, just as well. My positions were too opposed to the other active member, and bickering behind closed doors is, well, meh.

And now for the second part of the Landsraad removal. Voting against a vital bill to support Crown finances just because one wants to "stir the pot" and because one is opposed to the House system is not using the seat in a responsible manner. Should I have qualified my concession in that way? Perhaps I should have, but should I have to? Does it not come automatically that positions of trust are held in trust?

Oh, come on now. Someone else voted against the tax as well, and wasn't booted. It destroys the entire purpose of having a legislative body to order it to vote the way you want it to. If that is the governing style, then dissolve the Landsraad and rule by decree.

(Oh, and by the way it also fixed the Steward election. Shhhhh! (No offence to Corey.)

"Using a seat in a responsible manner" is voting the way you are told? Legislatures throughout modern time have held up revenue bills to extract concessions from the Executive. My flip comment about "stirring the pot" perhaps should have been rendered as "I wish that there be further debate", but I was trying to have fun with it.

Vital Bill? Horsehockey. Housekeeping. If the legislature is deadlocked, simply fire your adversaries (only half of them)? Then, why the pretense of a legislature? It's fiat money anyway, so "revenues from Crown lands" (by far the largest landholder) could have been invented just as easily.

He does have a tendency to 'claim-and-run' though. He sweeps in, claims the throne and promises to turn time back a couple of years when everything was "Traditional".

Guilty, to a point. I hadn't planned on Mors VI lighting up the sky when he did. And yes, Tradition is important. But I'm a bit of a flake when I'm flying without a flight plan. Well, more than a bit.

We still have a Kaiser(ess), we still have the Landsraad, we still frown on democracy, and we are still the greatest nation on Micras.

True, but we don't have our Duchies, or our Baronies, and there are bloody few non-Imperial counties. Many of us have attachments to our subdivisions, attachments that run deeper than post-counts. They are "home" in a weird way, and having your homes taken just because somebody got bored and wanted to try something new is just well, wrong.

This does not change merely because we change the way we organize our subdivisions.

Yes, it does. Many of these used to be sovereign micronations. It breaks trust with those who brought those subdivisions into Shireroth to treat them like so many lego-bricks.

With that, I want to invite everyone to come with constructive critique of the House system, and not just complaints.

If Houses can be grafted into the Duchy system, or vice versa, then I'm all for that. If its going to be a case of "Shut up, that's the way it is, your comments are not constructive because they don't support the position of the Kaiser(ess)", then fie on it.

I know that I have acted foolishly from time to time and I apologize for that, as well as for any harsh words said.

Likewise.

Posted: **Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:57 am**

If you think you've had a bad couple of days you can at least relax now and reflect that mine is heading south pretty quickly as well.

It's funny - it somehow feels morally wrong to be arguing with a 17-year old.

Posted: **Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:41 pm**

Looks like the midden is hitting the windmill.

Posted: **Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:41 pm**

Yes, it does. Many of these used to be sovereign micronations. It breaks trust with those who brought those subdivisions into Shireroth to treat them like so many lego-bricks.

Scott still has Hyperborea, and no one would ever change that. Aside from him, no one else can use that argument. I was the one with other no longer here that brought in the UAS to become Kildare. Though now that I think of it, I think you did bring some land in, so you probably ought get that back. But yeah. Not that great an argument Jake. (though it is the only one I'm bothering to respond to due to time and energy.

Posted: **Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:43 am**

Absentia, oddly enough

Posted: **Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:17 pm**

Okay, here's a fleshing-out of the proposal I made before:

The two biggest complaints with the House system as it stands are:

1. (from the opponents) People lose areas they are used to controlling; for example, Kildare loses some of its core lands, Hyperborea loses its historical association with Bjorngard and Cimmeria, So Sara loses its association with Florin Sara.

2. (from the supporters) Not enough intrigue; not enough people really having fun with the intricacies of the system.

This proposal addresses both issues.

Anyone of any house may post "development" in unassigned Imperial Lands without anyone's permission. "Development" is the same sorts of things that would convince the Kaiser to assign a county to someone: culture, stories, pictures, descriptions.

An unassigned Imperial county is considered within the "sphere of influence" of whatever house has given it the most development. So if I work very hard to develop Cimmeria, I can consider it within the sphere of House Kalirion, and even within the sphere of Minor House Alexander (in that, in character, my relatives and supporters control Cimmeria; minor house Alexander doesn't get its own subforum or anything).

A Kaiser or an official designated by the Kaiser may, if he wants, reward exceptionally good development work with a "governorship". For example, the Kaiser might say "I assign a governor from Minor House Alexander to Cimmeria". This is basically saying that the Kaiser recognizes my good work and gives me an official association with Cimmeria. If, two months later, I stop developing Cimmeria and really don't seem to have paid any attention to it, the Kaiser can fire the governor.

Two Houses can go after the same province. For example, if both House Kalirion and House Mortis want Wintergleam, members of both houses can do development work there, and if one of them does significantly better than the other, the Kaiser can assign one or the other house the governorship. Similarly, if Kalirion does a great job developing Wintergleam, but then Mortis moves in and does an even better job, the Kaiser can take the governorship away from Kalirion and give it to Mortis.

Likewise, two houses can strike deals and combine efforts. If me, Erik, and Jonas have all done some work in Wintergleam, House Kildare and House Kalirion can make an alliance against House Mortis, and say that Wintergleam will get a Kalirion governor in exchange for (say) Ran getting a Kildari governor. Then the Kaiser will count all work done by Kildare and Kalirion together, and if it's greater than the work done by Mortis, he'll give it to Kalir. We could even expand upon that by saying that, for example, you get extra credit if a lot of the counties bordering the county involved support you.

This would mean there are three levels of control over a County:
1. You are the Count, with exclusive right to it.
2. You have installed a minor member of your family as the Governor, with official but not exclusive right to it.
3. The county is generally recognized as being in your sphere of influence, even though you have no official right to it.

Posted: **Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:49 pm**

I... like it.

Posted: **Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:35 pm**

Mmmm. *Nods approval* Sweet, delicious influence.

With regards to some of the issues highlighted in another thread, though, should there be a way to handle issues of continuity?

For example, what happens if a county that had been extensively developed in the past, then abandoned/taken away, starts being developed again under this proposal? How should the previous material be treated, or should that be a matter left to the inviduals involved?

Or, in what would likely prove a more problematic case: what happens if multiple individuals choose to develop the same county simultaneously, as suggested, but they ignore or flatly contradict one another in their work? Should this be encouraged as a "best material wins" situation, or should they be expected to try to integrate what they're doing?

Posted: **Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:38 pm**

How is this influence thing different from getting actual ownership with the threat of revocation if you don't use it (ie exactly what we have now?) It's not like anyone is going to contest your control of Cimmeria. I guess if two people wanted the same county it could get interesting, but then again the "loser" may feel (perhaps justifiably) that all his hard work in cultural development was overlooked and unappreciated.

Posted: **Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:51 pm**

Erik Mortis wrote:I... like it.

It could surprise you, but... I like it too...

Posted: **Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:13 am**

I think it's a nifty idea IC, but echo Harvey's comments. Unless of course you can exert control over a broad range of counties at once by doing region-specific development.

Shireroth

Imperial Proclamation AII-2: On Various Subjects

Imperial Proclamation AII-2: On Various Subjects

Re: Imperial Proclamation AII-2: On Various Subjects

Re: Imperial Proclamation AII-2: On Various Subjects

Re: Imperial Proclamation AII-2: On Various Subjects

Re: Imperial Proclamation AII-2: On Various Subjects

Re: Imperial Proclamation AII-2: On Various Subjects

Re: Imperial Proclamation AII-2: On Various Subjects

Re: Imperial Proclamation AII-2: On Various Subjects

Re: Imperial Proclamation AII-2: On Various Subjects

Re: Imperial Proclamation AII-2: On Various Subjects

Re: Imperial Proclamation AII-2: On Various Subjects

Re: Imperial Proclamation AII-2: On Various Subjects

Re: Imperial Proclamation AII-2: On Various Subjects

Re: Imperial Proclamation AII-2: On Various Subjects

Re: Imperial Proclamation AII-2: On Various Subjects

Re: Imperial Proclamation AII-2: On Various Subjects

Re: Imperial Proclamation AII-2: On Various Subjects

Re: Imperial Proclamation AII-2: On Various Subjects