Shireroth

Yah?

I'm wondering whether it's good to do this. Or bad. The Afghanis haven't hurt Sweden*. Sweden is getting trapped in a war that cannot be won. Our soldiers die (few though, but then again, we haven't got an army in the first place, every death is a tragedy). Then there's the question of sovereignty, what right does Sweden have to be in Afghanistan? Has Afghanistan or have the Afghanis asked for Swedish presence? While small, the Swedish presence is also symbolic.

On the other hand, if we weren't there, what would happen to Afghanistan? Would it end up a new Somalia? Should Sweden, as a non-aligned military power, actually go against this provision for the sake of "saving lives" in Afghanistan? Or is the Swedish presence in Afghanistan actually fuelling the conflict there?

In the last few days I have been faced with this question numerous times from different people. I am a member of the Liberal Youth, the Swedish People's Liberal Party's youth organization and was confronted by the Leftists. The People's Party supported the Afghanistan invasion and subsequent occupation.

Speaking of occupation, is it really an occupation? If it is not, what is it? If it is, then is the occupation in line with international law? Could Sweden be breaking international law?

Just a few thoughts...



* or any other western European power

Daniel Farewell wrote:(few though, but then again, we haven't got an army in the first place, every death is a tragedy).

PRETTY SURE YOU'RE THINKING OF ICELAND. YOU GUYS DO HAVE AN ARMY OF COURSE (THOUGH I HEAR YOU'RE ENDING CONSCRIPTION SOON), BUT IT'S NOT MUCH TO BE PROUD OF.

Has Afghanistan or have the Afghanis asked for Swedish presence?

If in the sense that the Afghan Government continues to request the assistance of ISAF, to which Sweden contributes niche specialists and perhaps a Provincial Reconstruction Team then the answer is yes, yes they have. The legitimacy of the Afghan Government was been affirmed by a loya jirga and two presidential elections (although the less said about the last one the better), so the question ought to be does Sweden have the right to renege on its promises to a brother nation, an equal partner of the community of mankind, in its moment of direst need?

Speaking of occupation, is it really an occupation? If it is not, what is it? If it is, then is the occupation in line with international law? Could Sweden be breaking international law?

Hardly an occupation if the mission is recognised and endorsed by the United Nations. And if the United Nations is breaking so-called international law I'm just going to sit down and laugh my fucking head off.

On the other hand, if we weren't there, what would happen to Afghanistan? Would it end up a new Somalia? Should Sweden, as a non-aligned military power, actually go against this provision for the sake of "saving lives" in Afghanistan? Or is the Swedish presence in Afghanistan actually fuelling the conflict there?

Oh please, this is Afghanistan, it has existed in a permanent state of war and anarchy for as long as anyone can remember, and as a state it has been thoroughly broken ever since the Soviets invaded in 1978/79. The one thing you can guarantee is that they will continue to murder each other if Sweden and the international forces pull out, and the only thing that would change is the question of who is murdering whom and for what (spurious) reason.

Consider this, although Afghanistan is a long way from the frontiers of Europe, the world is so interconnected in terms of travel, trade and the movement of populations that no state and no peoples can remain completely isolated from the rest of the world (except for North Korea, whose limited contact with the outside world is generally held to be a good thing, since wherever Kim does pop out to say hi, for some reason ships end up mysteriously sinking). Even domestic pressures can radicalise emigre populations in third party countries and motivate them to do something stupid. How impressed do you think Britain or America would be if some Afghan or Kurd from Malmö tried to repeat the hilarious underpants bomber stunt? If you want a better world you should be prepared to provide the support for these god forsaken places to stand on their own two feet and not lapse into the chaos which will provide the space for extremist groups to set up the training camps and support infrastructure your alienated Afghan or Kurd from Malmö will pass through on his way to stock up with C-4 for his Calvin Kleins.

The trouble is, if the Americans and the Europeans abandon Afghanistan to its fate it is still going to be a thoroughly broken country where Pashtun, Uzbek, Tajik and Hazara drew in murderous antipathy. In political terms it would be a failed state, a vacuum, and nature abhors a vacuum. Both Pakistan and India take an intense interest in Afghan affairs, both Pakistan and India have access to nuclear weapons, both Pakistan and India harbour an intense and mutual antipathy. You're starting to see the problem here I gather? Worse still Iran continues to regard Herat as historically being a part of its own domain, and that's even when its not thinking in Achaemenid terms. China and Russia hardly want to see the balance of power upset in the region and would probably contribute arms and money to prevent any side hostile to their interests from getting the upperhand. In short, without the contributions of the Western Powers - that is to say without the giant American military and diplomatic footprint - there risks being in the heart of the Eurasian landmass a huge almighty conflagration of a size and ferocity probably not seen since the Iran-Iraq War.

In the last few days I have been faced with this question numerous times from different people. I am a member of the Liberal Youth, the Swedish People's Liberal Party's youth organization and was confronted by the Leftists.

Leftists, in the UK tending to be of the Socialist Worker's Party, for some reason seem to regard Islamists as fellow travellers in some sort of globalised class war. They must be suffering from some sort of false consciousness otherwise they'd remember what happened to the Tudeh Party in Revolutionary Iran. Being proper Trots they also ought to be able to remember what it was Lenin said about useful idiots...

Thank you, Khan. Very insightful!