Shireroth

So, with the other thread covering the lands movements. Now we need to talk about the new system of Nobility.

I see that the main elements of nobility are:
-Rank (House status)
-Land ownership/rulership
-Landsraad vote/speech
-Title
-Inheritance
-Military (?)


Right now we mass them all together into two titles Dukes and Barons(equivalent). Now we need to start breaking them up, and see how to combine them.

For ranks I suggest we add a new level based on the Khan's suggestions which I shall quote.

Kaiser = Kaiser, surely? No need to invent a new term for what is already a category of one.
Dukes = Nobles Patrician (The noble who sits at the apex of local government)
Barons = Nobles Equestrian (An equestrian class, well in the past they would have needed a horse to travel round their accumulated counties...)
Counts/Earls/Sanctmasters/Brothelkeepers = Nobles Civitas (The bottom of the pile, administering and interfacing with the actual simulated locations, the lowest engine for the generating of cultural works, however dull and insipid - Kanto - those might actually be.)

I suggest we determine voting/speaking rights based on rank.

Kaiser: Can speak in the Landsraad.
Nobles Patrician: Can speak and vote in the Landsraad. Major House status
Nobles Equestrian: Can speak in the Landsraad, but not vote. Minor House status
Nobles Civitas: Cannot speak or vote in the Landsraad. No house status.

Commoners would obviously not be noble.

Civitas would be noble in name only. They would have a noble title. It would be the place to start. Now certain titles would come with Rank and other rights. Land would come on it's own, unconnected to title unless inherited with the title.

Duke: <i>(Patrician)</i>, Title and lands connected to title may be inherited.

Marquess: <i>(Patrician)</i>, Title and lands connected to title may not be inherited.

Baron: <i>(Equestrian)</i>, Title and lands connected to title may be inherited.

Earl: <i>(Equestrian)</i> Title and lands connected to title may not be inherited.

Count: <i>(Civitas)</i> Title and lands connected to title may be inherited.

Thane: <i>(Civitas)</i> Title and lands connected to title may not be inherited.

Emir: <i>(Common)</i> Title and lands connected to title may not be inherited. (this is for commoners who have land)

Daimyo: <i>(Common)</i> Same as an Emir, but granted permission by the Kaiser to have a military force.

I'm of the opinion that anyone with a Noble title, no matter how low, has the right to military forces.

These are just my suggestions/ideas. Any other suggestions, corrections..etc?

Major Houses would only answer to the Kaiser, get their own forum on the board, as Duchies get now.
Minor Houses would get either a sub-forum in the Major House they are part of, or if autonomous, would get a sub-forum in an Houses Minor forum.

All the current county forums would go to the person who controlled them, and be moved to the appropriate House forum. If in a rare case not part of a house... we'll figure something out.

Hurmu would get it's own forum, just like now.

The stuff on inheritance is an important point, and seems to have been handled well. I'd just like to ask what the "right to military forces" entails, and whether it includes any responsibilities (eg to defend the Kaiser in civil war; defend Shireroth in external war etc).

Emir means Prince, so I'm not sure that's an accurate title for that particular slot. Maybe Lord/Lady?

Daimyo seems out of place, but I know you like that Japanese stuff.

I honestly don't have any objections to the layout of the system above.

HOLY... Roman Empire!

Atleast, that's my impression.

First of all, why are we calling commoners stuff like emirs and daimyos? Call them commoners, then grant land inheritance stuff by deeds without nifty names. This is the worst sort of nobility inflation.

Second, enough Roman stuff. There's got to be something more creative. Best of all would be if Nick could get out of whatever cave he's in and come up with some Praeta equivalents.

Third, we're kinda adding titles on here willy-nilly. If we don't watch out, we'll end up with a repeat of the whole "counts are actually higher than barons in the real world so things are terribly confused" fiasco. Will it really be intuitive whether a Thane is higher or lower than a Marquess?

Why not just have three ranks - Duke, Baron, and Count - and grant Hereditary Dukedoms or Non-Hereditary Dukedoms. If we need a separate name, we could call it Duke (nonhereditary) vs. Duke Palatine (hereditary), although that's kinda stretching the meaning of Palatine.

For some weird reason, I like the title "Thane" better than either "Baron" or "Count", but that's just me.

I like Thane too. but I looked it up, it's a really low title.

Scott, I kinda like the ability to know someone's situation based just off their title. Thus all the distinctions. And people like fancy titles.

If I say, 'I'm a Earl" You know both my rank, and various other things about me. And right now they are kinda arbitrary. Could you suggest a better order or titles?

We could just replace Emir with Governor and Daimyo with Military Governor. Lol I could use Naib... it was used in Dune, but was actually a Arabic title.

As for Right to a Military. I figured that means they would be allowed a military force like we have now, but must also commit it to protect the nation as a whole, and the Kaiser.

And.. I didn't use any Roman stuff... I used European (which may derive from Roman) but that's for consistency. (ignore Emir and Daimyo, I was just trying them on).

The title of Thane was pretty popular back in the days if I look in the Kildarian archives. And I loved the title (more then Baron, to be honest).

Perhaps we should upgrade it...

Regarding the Military I was thinking perhaps to create an interlocking system of mutual dependency the forces of the Houses should be graded according to rank as in:

Civitas: Infantry
Equestrian: Armour, Artillery, Helicopters
Patrician: Multi-role Combat Aircraft, Warships, Air Defence Missiles
Kaiser: SDI, ISI everything that goes *BOOM* on an epic scale &etc

In such as system the MoMA would have an easy life, adjudicating over internal strife and acting as the marshalling officer of the Kaiser when he assembles his host to bestow the gifts of "nifftiness" on the poor benighted heathens.

As for Scotts objections I did say at the start that the "Roman" names were placeholders pending something "authentic" being dreamt up.

Oh.. that's what he meant by more roman names.. In which case, yes. They are just place holders.

Well, if we broke up the type of forces nobles could muster like that, it would make conflict between the houses... difficult. Though it might make alliances...more necessary between houses. (Yes, I plan to remove the law prohibiting alliances between duchies. The Politics must flow...)

Yes it would make the politiking more necessary - also makes the Civitas more relevant as without them the higher lords cannot hold what they gain.

I won't put it in stone yet.. but I tentatively like the idea.

I say bleh to the military boloney.

Hereditary - Non-hereditary

Duke - Marquess
Baron - Earl
Count - Viscount
Commoner - Commoner

Other titles that could be given is just a generical "Lord", "Sir", "Knight", "Esquire" etc.

BOOYAH!

I like the title prince, can't we add it in?

That might be a bit German, since the usual meaning of prince is 'son of the King/Queen-regnant'.

Mainly cosmetic, I know, but I would suggest an arrangement of titles like so:

hereditary/nonhereditary
(Patrician) Duke/Margrave (in place of marquess... I think it's a better-sounding title)
(Equestrian) Baron/Thane
(Civitas) Count/Earl

It's hard to find an actual equivalent of Duke that fits in with the other titles, so it might as well be Marquess or Margrave, which are at least high ranks; but Baron and Thane were approximately equivalent at some point in English history (after the Norman conquest, many thanes became re-termed as barons) and while it's true that thanes were pretty low-ranking, frankly, so are barons supposed to be. We can ignore the realities in both cases pretty equally, make them equivalent to one another, and it gives an excuse to use "Thane", which people seem to agree is awesome (and it is). That frees up Earl to be used as a counterpart for Count, and since those seem to be considered equivalent in real life as well, all the better. And we can chuck out Viscount, which I'm honestly not fond of.

Thus we would have an arrangement in which hereditary and nonhereditary titles are equivalent in a way that is based on actual usage. And bonus points: if "Margrave" were used, all the hereditary titles would be Latin/French-derived, and the nonhereditary titles would be Germanic/Norse-derived. Hooray for symmetry!

That's actually well-thought, Shyriath (Why do I always pronounce your name as Shireroth??

I hate the word "earl", can't we replace it with the Norse "jarl"?

I'd be down with Jarl...It's what Earl comes from.

Thus we get!

hereditary/nonhereditary
(Patrician) Duke/Margrave (in place of marquess... I think it's a better-sounding title)
(Equestrian) Baron/Thane
(Civitas) Count/Jarl

Heehee... Jarl. Y'know, it has a delightfully piratic sound to it...

"Yaarrrrrl!"