Shireroth

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:29 am**

Your Imperial Niftyness,

I propose to you the following amendment to the Charter. Currently section III reads:

Imperial Charter - Article III : The Landsraad wrote: Section C: Members of the Landsraad.

a. The Landsraad shall consist of the Nobles of Shireroth.
 b. Nobles may pick their own successor from among those eligible by birthright. Should no heir be available the Kaiser shall appoint the next noble. 
c. The Kaiser has the power to create and destroy subdivisions as zie sees fit. The Kaiser has the power to reshape the borders of any subdivision as zie sees fit. 
d. The Landsraad may remove a subdivision’s seat from the Landsraad, thereby disbanding the subdivision completely and redefining the lands as necessary.
 e. Only Nobles of Shireroth or Emissaries appointed by a noble may speak or vote within the Landsraad. The nobles of the Landsraad may allow non-nobles to speak within the Landsraad under procedures specified by the Landsraad. 
f. Nobles of Shireroth may not violate this Charter, Imperial Decrees, Landsraad Procedures, or the Lawbook.

I propose that it be replaced by:

Imperial Charter - Article III : The Landsraad wrote: Section C: Landsraad Membership.

a. The membership of the Landsraad shall be determined by the Procedures of the Landsraad.
~~b. Nobles may pick their own successor from among those eligible by birthright. Should no heir be available the Kaiser shall appoint the next noble.~~
 ~~c. The Kaiser has the power to create and destroy subdivisions as zie sees fit. The Kaiser has the power to reshape the borders of any subdivision as zie sees fit.~~
 d. The Landsraad may remove a subdivision’s seat from the Landsraad, thereby disbanding the subdivision completely and redefining the lands as necessary.
 e. Only Members of the Landsraad or Emissaries appointed by a member may ~~speak or~~ vote within the Landsraad. ~~The nobles of the Landsraad may allow non-nobles to speak within the Landsraad under procedures specified by the Landsraad.~~ 
f. ~~Nobles~~ No denizen of Shireroth may violate this Charter, Imperial Decrees, Landsraad Procedures, or the Lawbook.

Imperial Charter - Article I : The Kaiser wrote: Section B: Powers of the Kaiser.

[...]
f. Any bill, act, measure, dictate, statement or order passed, issued by, or put before the Landsraad may be vetoed by the Kaiser for any reason, at any time. The Kaiser may vest others with veto powers over the Landsraad second only to the Kaiser.
g. The Kaiser may appoint or remove any Noble in Shireroth as zie sees fit.
h. The Kaiser has the power to create and destroy subdivisions as zie sees fit. The Kaiser has the power to reshape the borders of any subdivision as zie sees fit. 

a. and e. - altered to remove the illegality inherent in the current structure of the Landsraad.
b. - removed since a noble's rights are addressed in the Lawbook.
c. - moved to Artical I, Section B, since it was out of place.
f. - HUGE LOOPHOLE. Fixed.

EDIT: Fixed the mistake Allot pointed out.
EDIT2: Changed to Malliki's wording.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:55 am**

No denizen of Shireroth may ~~not~~ violate this Charter, Imperial Decrees, Landsraad Procedures, or the Lawbook.

Oops.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:46 am**

Not really a loophole, and the amendment is far too invasive in my opinion.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:10 am**

Well the charter only binds Nobles (ie. dukes), the Landsraad, the Arbiter, The Praetor, and the Kaiser to it. Not its citizens. That a pretty big loophole if you ask me.

Plus this is only a proposal. A starting point if you will. But I do think that a. and e. must be addressed to avoid future legal quandaries.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:24 am**

I would contend that f. is not a loophole, but entirely unnecessary. You just need a blanket statement that "The Charter is the supreme law of the land." and that takes care of everything. It is pretty obvious that no one can violate the supreme law of the land. Furthermore, laws are usually inviolable, so saying that you can't violate the law is rather pointless. The only person that may violate any sort of law in Shireroth is the Kaiser, and that only applies to the DecreeBook and the LawBook. Even that doesn't have to be spelt out since the Landsraad is inferior to the Kaiser, and therefore any law it makes is also inferior, and the DecreeBook is a collection of previous Imperial Decrees that does not limit the power of the Kaiser. Why use 100 words in five places when you can say the same thing more clearly with perhaps 10 words in one place?

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:39 am**

Understood. But that would require a far more intrusive amendment then the one I am currently proposing

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:46 am**

But I think that what you're proposing is bad.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:38 am**

Well then instead of being counterproductive, what do you propose to improve it?

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:43 am**

I'm not being counterproductive, I say what I think.

Section C: Members of the Landsraad.

a. The membership of the Landsraad shall be determined by the Procedures of the Landsraad.
 b. Nobles may pick their own successor from among those eligible by birthright. Should no heir be available the Kaiser shall appoint the next noble. 
c. The Kaiser has the power to create and destroy subdivisions as zie sees fit. The Kaiser has the power to reshape the borders of any subdivision as zie sees fit. 
d. The Landsraad may remove a subdivision’s seat from the Landsraad, thereby disbanding the subdivision completely and redefining the lands as necessary.
 e. Only Members of the Landsraad or Emissaries appointed by a member may speak or vote within the Landsraad. The members of the Landsraad may allow non-members to speak within the Landsraad under procedures specified by the Landsraad. 

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:09 pm**

Ah ok I much prefer the wording. However, I chose my words for a reason. The Landsraad should simply be a body of voting citizens, not a antechamber to chat in. The Landsraad should be a place to cast votes, the Front Gate should be where the discussions take place since everyone has access.

Also I maintain that moving c. and removing b. are useful amendment, but that is just me. Why don't we see how the Kaiser feels about this?

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:45 pm**

I agree with that division, but I think it should be left up to the Landsraad to decide if they want debate in the Landsraad or not. It shouldn't be mandated by the Charter.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:29 pm**

Umm.... You just turned Shireroth's legislature into a complete Democracy, and abolished the Nobility... I know that's not the intention, but that will/can be the result...

Mike's correction makes more sense, and is the intent of that part of the Charter. Just never got cleared up.

Everything else, leave alone.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:08 pm**

Erik Mortis wrote:Umm.... You just turned Shireroth's legislature into a complete Democracy, and abolished the Nobility... I know that's not the intention, but that will/can be the result...

Not at all! At least unless you consider our current system a democracy. Also, nobility is covered by the lawbook. I'm hardly abolishing anything...

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:10 pm**

Your amendment makes it possible to let anyone into the Landsraad, and that isn't really the point.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:10 pm**

But you opened the way for Non-nobles to be allowed to vote.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:13 pm**

But the point is that they already do! The Law book defines a noble as a duke. Barons are "Lesser-Nobles", not nobles. And at one point a few counts had votes, and they aren't even nobles "count is merely an office" i believe you said erik. This is why I have been saying that current voting procedures are in violation with the charter.

EDIT: Sorry, and those who can vote are determined by the procedures, which already say only nobles and lesser-nobles can vote so i don't see the issue. A "Voting shirithian citizen" is exactly equivalent to a "member of the Landsraad" in any case.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:53 pm**

Lesser-Nobles ARE nobles.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:58 pm**

And the counts?

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:59 pm**

Are not nobles.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:01 pm**

Thats my point... Counts are allowed votes but they are not nobles.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:01 pm**

We should make that clear in the lawbook. (again.)

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:04 pm**

Ok one second. The Noble/Lesser-Noble argument aside. Your issue with my amendment is that I'm letting non-nobles vote right? And yet under your current system counts {which we agree are not nobles} can vote if accorded them by the duke. So what in the world is the issue?

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:20 pm**

Your description of the current system fails. Counts can never vote, since you have to be a duke or a lesser noble to vote under the current system. If a duke gave votes to a count, the count would have to become a lesser noble first.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:28 pm**

Malliki Tosha wrote: If a duke gave votes to a count, the count would have to become a lesser noble first.

Then there has been some breaking of the law.

In any case I want the definition of a noble clarified.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:33 pm**

No, there is no breaking of the law. To give votes to a count, you have to make the count a lesser noble first.

Noble = Kaiser and dukes
Lesser nobles = Barons and comparable positions

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:45 pm**

Sorry I do get that. I meant there have been some counts with votes. Not a big deal now anyways.

In the lawbook my friend

Also as I said initially this is simply a proposal. Perhaps "membership" would be more appropriate, but why not take the safer rout in case we want to let a count vote? I'd like to hear what the Kaiser says and brush up accordingly.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:59 pm**

I just set out some notes for Titles and stuff in Goldenbrook that would account for all manner of strange combination that could be used. http://shireroth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=273&t=12903

In effect I could grant someone no lands but make them a Lesser-Noble..etc..etc. The system as it stands is pretty open. Like I've said before, we just have issues implementing things properly. If there are counts using Landsraad votes without being Lesser-Noble (Or an Emissary for a Noble), then that has been illegal.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:00 pm**

*boom*
That was the sound of Leo's brain exploding.

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:02 pm**

Welcome to Feudalism!

Posted: **Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:35 pm**

But no - "Lesser Nobles" is just as much of a title as "count". As Erik said, it is entirely possible to make everyone in your Duchy "Lesser Nobles" but not give them land. It is very open-ended.

But since most Dukes never bother to appoint their counts to "lesser nobles" (which everyone seems to have interpreted to be "baron") then yes, technically it was illegal-ish. But I think everyone knew what they meant.

I agree with Malliki's amendment, even though it's just a slight wording change (members of the landsraad vs. voting citizens). But I also don't see why stuff about the Kaiser's powers and the Dukes' powers is lumped in there with the Landsraad stuff (b&c).

Shireroth

[Proposal] Charter Amendment - Regarding the Landsraad

[Proposal] Charter Amendment - Regarding the Landsraad

Re: [Proposal] Charter Amendment - Regarding the Landsraad

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