Shireroth

It looks like I have set myself about the task of designing a Shirerothian Langauge. I'm currently sketching out some ideas about what I want the language to look like, and I will expose those as they develop in appropriate threads.

Here, I want to outline what my basic plan of attack is. These things are not in order with respect to time (and are thus subject to change) (see also here).

• Establish the sort of aesthetic we're after: Given the proposed uses for the language, I reckon this is the area that needs the most attention. The overall appearance of the language needs to be unique and to fit Shireroth. The orthography is a good place to do this since spelling is really arbitrary, although spelling rules that obscure the pronunciation should be avoided (cf. English).

• Develop a Morphology: Words, like sentences, need structure. Morphology can be tricky because it involves both sentence structure and phonology, and it is possible to engineer a great deal of complexity into the language in just this component. This is another good place to control how the language appears, though it isn't quite so easy to manipulate

• Compile a Lexicon: The language will need words. This I will definitely want some help with, as people will want certain words for certain purposes (translations of titles, etc.) Also, to get the language to a basic level of functionality, it will need some core vocabulary. At this point it is unclear to me how much of the vocabulary should be original and how much should be borrowed in from other sources, and, if the latter, what the sources should be.

• Establish a core grammar: Basically, there ought to be a fairly systematic way of combining individual lexical items (i.e. words) to build phrases (and maybe even sentences!) If we want people to actually use the language for any reason, this should be kept fairly simple, but have enough quirks to make it interesting.

• Phonology: Probably the least of the concerns here is how the language actually sounds, since there won't be much in the way of speaking opportunities. It would still be worth the time to make sure one could actually speak the language if they really wanted to. This also ties into the lexicon as well, as common phonological properties help to make the words in the lexicon look like they all belong to the same language.

The immediate goal will be to create a basic framework on which to build. From there, the language can be extended to suit the needs of the nation. At that point, I can leave it in the capable hands of the citizens of Shireroth to do as they please with it.

I hope for participation from other citizens through much of this process (and it is a process), as I would like some creative input especially with regard to the aesthetic component in addition to certain grammatical points. Without inside input, I will simply make whatever I want and you will get what I give you in the end. That is hardly the way it ought to be as this language is for Shireroth and not for me. However, I'm assuming creative control over this, and in the end I am making the decisions.

Anyway, thoughts or comments from anybody? Is there anything that anybody would like to see in this language?

Here are some updates and preliminaries:

• I've got some sketches of what things might look like and the sort of direction I want to take it.
• This includes verb conjugation and noun declension paradigms, in addition to a preliminary orthography.
  • Nouns: Two genders (sort of), four cases, two numbers.
  • Verbs: At least three tenses: past, present, and future. Conjugate for person, number, and tense. Might add a subjunctive mood, more tenses. Also thinking about modal verbs.
• There is some basic phonology, though the only thing I've worked out is some vowel harmony.
• The syntax still needs work, but I have a few things lined up that will be interesting and introduce some variation into the places where the language is most likely to be used (different ways of introducing possession, word order, etc.).

I'm currently using the working title "Se Præta Sxiróþes", meaning "the Language of Shireroth". The verb præta has an interesting dual etymology in this language, coming both from Germanic, where it means to talk (cf. Swedish "prata", English "prattle"), and the Latin where it comes from "praeire", meaning to go before, to lead the way (which is where the Shirerothian English word "prætor" comes from). That's why I like the name (right now), as the language is both a means of communication and a representative of Shirerothian culture. Might we want another name, though?

Gryphon Avocatio wrote: [*] Nouns: Two genders (sort of),

Considering we tend to make an issue out of using genderless pronouns in official Shirithian legislation, I hope this decision won't irredeemably force gender upon the pronouns of the new language

[*] There is some basic phonology, though the only thing I've worked out is some vowel harmony.

Yays! I mean yäys!

I'm currently using the working title "Se Præta Sxiróþes", meaning "the Language of Shireroth". The verb præta has an interesting dual etymology in this language, coming both from Germanic, where it means to talk (cf. Swedish "prata", English "prattle"), and the Latin where it comes from "praeire", meaning to go before, to lead the way (which is where the Shirerothian English word "prætor" comes from). That's why I like the name (right now), as the language is both a means of communication and a representative of Shirerothian culture. Might we want another name, though?

There's a word for things like this: Nifty. Because that's what this is

I don't know how unreasonable a request this is, but might it be possible to limit accents or special characters in the language? Or, at the very least, make it so that laziness using the accent marks isn't a mortal sin - ie Sxiróþes wouldn't have some completely different meaning from Sxiroþes that would get lost if someone decided to just leave the mark out?

I still make accent marks by running charmap, and although I bet there's a quicker way to do it, I still bet most of the accented words would end up mangled. Take a lesson from Barac[a with tilde]o (or were you not around for that?)

Accents make languages look like Craitish, that is, amateurish. I have full faith in Gryphon's skills here, but I share Scott's wish.

If it makes you feel better, Nick, I have anything you might want to use on my keyboard

I personally find "Se Præta Sxiróþes" a very nifty and very typable phrase. *approves* I'd be more inclined to help with the actual language-y bits, but I'm still early in my education as a linguist and I'd be far to tainted by another conlang I'm working on.

I could, theoretically, make a special keyboard layout for this language, given all the special characters, and it shouldn't be too intrusive upon your normal typing (such as setting þ to alt+t). Anyone interested in that and/or is Nick ok with this plan?

Just some normal, everyday person feedback, but the main reason I have yet to learn any micronation language besides my own is because that they all have phrases that I can't type, nontheless pronounce. I have a QWERTY keyboard, so if you could make a language that makes due with the things on that, then I would definately consider learning the language.

As long as You (singular) is different from You (Plural) I'll be happy.

Erik Mortis wrote:As long as You (singular) is different from You (Plural) I'll be happy.

Yeah! Use: jij (singular) and jullie (plural). Very easy to remember.

I think "du" and "ni" are much easier to remember.

We'll see what Nick comes up with...

Jag tror också att "du" och "ni" är lätt att komma ihåg :P Men det är svenska. Jag vill skapa shirerothska.

And fear not, Erik, there will be plural and singular distinctions in the 2nd person. I couldn't live with myself if their weren't.

Scott and everybody else: I suggest you all learn how to set your OS's keyboard settings to allow you to type these characters if typing this language frequently is something that you think you might do. I think laziness on your parts is a poor excuse for limiting the orthography of a language that people suggested I design to have a "cool orthography".

There is only one accented character in the language, which is ó (like Craitish, though that is just a horrible way of mangling the already nonsensical English orthography). The difference between "Sxiróþes" and "Sxiroþes" can never be anything more than a minor spelling error because the presence of "ó" is determined entirely by vowel harmony. I could have used "ö", but people (myself included) didn't want it to look too Germanic. Admittedly, the idea for ó came from Faroese, where the glyph can sometimes represent a short [ø], but that's hardly the first place people's minds go. I didn't really like the look of "ø" for the orthography (especially when æ is also there, as it looks like Dano-Norwegian). I have used ^ as a diacritic before and I wanted to do something different. If you think that this all sounds amateurish, then I don't know what to tell you.

This and the other letters are easily accessible on a Windows PC (I don't know about Macs). They also all have easy alternatives that do not interfere with the orthography of the language if you can't figure out how to work a number pad:

• æ -ALT+0230 - ae
• ç - ALT+0231 - c (ç is predictable based on phonology)
• ð - ALT+0240 - dh
• ó - ALT+0243 - o (ó is predictable based on phonology)
• þ - ALT+0254 - th
  [\list]
  
  Now deal with it.
  
  I'll acquiesce a bit and leave out the letter ƕ (ALT +0405, if you're curious), which I originally intended to use mostly because there is no language which has ever actually used it. However, that also means 99% of fonts don't have it, so it's practically useless.

Don't leave out ƕ! That's the best one! If no other language has it, that just makes us original and interesting, as opposed to ð or something which is floating around every pseudo-Viking/Germanic nation in the sector (sorry, Arviður, but it had to be said)

I too like ƕ, but the uppercase version is Ƕ, and I can't help but think it looks a little silly. I have been toying with the idea of replacing it with Xw/xw.

Here's why this is important. As I have it outlined, Præta Sxiróþes will have what are basically indo-european question words. This is mostly because it is, in many ways, indo+european based, and because these are words that are very unlikely to change (and I like putting some elements of realism in my made-up languages), and plausibly reinforced by English influence. I intend to have the language be VSO (The main verb precedes the subject, and then the object follows the subject), which is found in languages such as Arabic and the Celtic group. So for instance (this is a very simple example because there is little vocabulary so far):

Prætet Scot an Eriçi.
Speaks Scott to Erik.

When you ask a question, you use a questioning particle at the beginning of the sentence, and the verb comes after the subject (in theoretical terms, the particle is sitting in the C position and blocks movement of the verb from T or I to C). I was planning on having other question words start with the same sound (much as they do in many languages). The sound is /ʍ/ or /xʷ/, and I was going to use ƕ for that. Now, what do you think? Which looks better to you? Or are there any other suggestions for this?

Xwe Scot prætet an Eriçi?
Ƕe Scot prætet an Eriçi?

Can I propose to use a reversed question mark at the beginning of a question (there still is a normal question mark at the end). I consider it as very useful (smart Spanish... ).

I don't have much of an opinion besides saying that this is awesome and I love it (provisionally).

I would prefer 3 genders over 2 genders. After all, there are a lot of things in the world that are neither masculine nor feminine. Many Indo-European languages (Russian, Sanskrit, Latin) have 3 genders. More importantly for your purposes, Icelandic also has 3 genders.

•...Ñ.... I can't make 'ƕ'.. but I think it rocks! ALT +0405 isn't working....þ æ I can do the others.. how odd..

And a neutral pronoun would make sense since we use them in our documents.

Kaiser Leto: Not until you change the flag back.

On Neuter gender:

AryezturMejorkhor wrote:there are a lot of things in the world that are neither masculine nor feminine

In fact, only animate individuals actually have gender. Grammatical gender need not coincide with natural gender. A neuter gender is not out of the question, and I have been thinking about it. It just seems to me that it might be an unnecessary complication. Bear in mind, also, that a language needn't have three genders to have a neuter (eg. Swedish, Dutch more or less). Notice, too, that it is possible to have (non-)gender specific pronouns in a language without gender (like English). And, of course, I really don't want to mimic Icelandic too much (I already stole a bit gratuitously from its orthography).

So, at the very least, a neuter pronoun is probably in order. I'll give the gender as a whole some more thought, though I am inclined to let things be.

Also, I've started posting some of the basic morphology and stuff at http://shireroth.org/shirewiki/Gryphon_ ... B3%C3%BEes bearing in mind that this is all subject to change.

Kaiser Leto: Not until you change the flag back.

I'm shocked by that kind of behaviour. If I would do the same, Erik wouldn't be Arbiter or even a noble. I hope you take that back. It's very childish to blackmail someone that way (I admit: I don't feel very pressured by it ).

There is no official flag, so I can only repeal the decree (what already has been done).

So... add the reversed question marks!

You shouldn't feel pressured by it. I'm mostly being facetious.

Inverted question marks are not out of the question, but the idea of having a nearly always sentence-initial set of words beginning with Ƕ serves just about the same purpose that the ¿ of Spanish does.

¿Ƕe Scot prætet an Eriçi?

Hmm...not bad, actually...not bad at all...

"did scott speak to erik?" ?

Yes, Erik. Precisely.

Sorry for the lull everybody. I have had a busy weekend....I ought to have some verbal inflexional stuff up soon...

Question, Nick: Why are you representing vowel harmony of /e/ and /o/ in the orthography if they're allophones? Also, do the low vowels participate in the vowel harmony?

I could make a keyboard and possibly do other languagy bits.

Also I would recommend replacing ƕ/XW/Xw with Ʒ/ʒ.

CJ Miller wrote:Also I would recommend replacing ƕ/XW/Xw with Ʒ/ʒ.

Doesn't really fit the natural orthography at all. First of all [ʒ] is best fit for /ʒ/, the sound in vision. Other than that it's a cursive z. It's close to the yogh character, a letter derived from Latin [g] and representing /j/ in Old English. (We use [y] for that sound now) For that sound, one of ƕ/xw/hw/wh (the last one is what it is in modern English, the one right before it in Old English) would probably be the best choice.

H'm. Ƕ/ƕ it is then.

How many cases (nominative, accusative, etc.) will/should there be in Shirithian?

Sorry, everybody, for my sudden disappearance. My academic/professional life sort of got crazy over the last two weeks, and with that came a torrent of extra work I had to do. This, unfortunately, needed to go on the back burner for a bit.

I'll be back, hopefully later in the week, with some updates that I have made.

Would you mind if I put up a possible verb conjugation on the wiki page?