Shireroth

De Nederlanden ("The Netherlands") is a Dutch micronation that is rapidly expanding in the English sector. They are a part of the SC and a few up and coming micronationalists (like Maximillian, who has made appearances here) are citizens. They are a fine, upstanding nation and I would be proud to see them aligned with Shireroth. I ask that the members of the Landsraad ratify this treaty of friendship and non-aggression with them.

TREATY OF FRIENDSHIP AND NON-AGGRESSION BETWEEN SHIREROTH AND DE NEDERLANDEN

WHEREAS the two countries of the IMPERIAL REPUBLIC OF SHIREROTH and the REPUBLIEK DER NEDERLANDEN, having come into contact with one another and and finding their interests to be coincident, do desire to formalize and secure their cordial feelings, they do agree:

FIRST, that each recognize the other's sovereignty and right to self-rule of the country, its peoples, and government institutions.

SECOND, that both countries commit to resolve all mutual disputes peacefully, using a neutral third party agreed to by both should this prove impossible by normal channels

THIRD, that both countries shall remain open and accessible to tourists and other visitors from one another, barring national emergencies or other such security issues

FOURTH, that both recognize one another as the rightful owner of all territory, real and imaginary, that they claim.

FIFTH, that proper channels of communication shall be opened between them, so as to facilitate dialogue and future cooperation.

SIXTH, that both shall not engage in or sponsor any covert or overt military activity against the peoples or government institutions of the other.

SEVENTH, that this Treaty may only be amended, revised, enlarged and expanded upon the concurrence of both Shireroth and De Nederlanden. Any contrary action or measure shall be null and void.

EIGHTH, that the Treaty shall enter into force upon ratification of both Shireroth and De Nederlanden in accordance with their native constitutional procedures.

I don't see the point of these meaningless treaties. The recognition part is redundant and the non-aggression part could be handled through the SC.

I respectfully disagree. While I understand and appreciate that some find that "mutual recognition" in micronational terms is useless, I believe that it in fact holds more meaning in micronational context. "Mutual recognition" does not only mean "we recognize you as a country", because you are right, THAT is meaningless. "Mutual recognition" means "we like you. We approve of how your country is run (to an extent). Don't go away. Be our friends." Let's face it, Micras would be a whole lot emptier if it was just Shireroth on the map. Micronationalism would be a whole lot more boring if we all stayed on our own boards and didn't talk to other people. Mutual recognition for me is the official way of saying "Hey buddy, let's be pals. Come over for tea and crumpets one of these days." Maybe if this was Natopia or Nelaga (not that I don't love those countries, and sorry for singling you out, you just came to mind) I wouldn't be so emphatic that this should be done. But a Dutch micronation with over 6000 posts means that there are whole sectors of Micras that we aren't even aware of (and if we are aware, it's only through Jonas). This I regret. For all of Shireroth's time on Micras, how is it that only now people like Maximillian and Nihill Romez are showing up? I don't speak Dutch, but from the ten sentences I've exchanged with Max, he seems like a remarkably intelligent person. What is the harm in trying to bring our nations closer together? Oh, and before I forget, De Nederlanden asked for this treaty first, and I agreed.

And as for non-aggression, let's face it. Is anyone really worried about invasion? It is a gesture, as is mutual recognition, and although this example may be random, it is 3AM and I am very tired. Even though the UN exists, we still have NATO. Doesn't seem too useless. That may be a weak metaphor, but it's one I'm damn proud of. I'm damn proud of it, and de Nederlanden for taking enormous steps to get themselves just a little bit of spotlight in the English sector, and in one of the biggest nations no less. Mutual Recognition is the first step towards a more macronationally global Micras. And if that didn't make sense, fuck it, I'm going to bed.

I have nothing against de Nederlanden, my position regarding these treaties is the same regardless of what nation it is, that's why I tried to get rid of them. "Mutual recognition" is pointless. We already recognize them since you're talking to them in an official capacity. I have also never seen a mutual recognition treaty lead to a closer relationship. The usual thing to do is propose a treaty, have it signed, and then forget about it until the next foreign minister assumes the office, goes on a tour, says "hey, we have a treaty! Yay!" and then it's off again. If the treaty held any substance other than "hey, we're here, you're here", I would vote yes. But it doesn't.

Finally, I really dislike standardized treaties.

Brookshire (6) - Nay

Straylight AYE (10), though, out of mere tradition of nothing else. I say we discuss the necessity of bringing standardised treaties to the Landsraad after we've passed this one. I wouldn't be averse to just authorising the MiniEx to just treaty-in-a-can anyone they like, FWIW.

I authorized the MiniEx to issue Statements of Recognition, but that seems to be ignored now.

K'Tzuni would love a treaty with the Nederlanden, provided such treaty actually obligated both of to do something.

However, De Nederlanden is a good country. K'Tzuni sees no harm in having treaties with them, but would much prefer if there were obligations in treaties. A treaty is basically a contract, and a contract between two people saying "Hey, let's be BFF" is not a contract that is good.

A treaty with de Nederlanden should contain obligations on both our parts. Perhaps if Shireroth paid the Nederlanders some money, they could hold courses in the Dutch language? That's one idea. ANother one is the recent trend of being "in character". A treaty that would allow, in times of peace, ships access to the ports of Shireroth and Nederlanden respectively.

That's another idea. Let's do some brainstorming and offer our friends in Nederlanden a treaty of substance, a treaty of friendship, and a treaty that would cement out relationship and make it an ever better one.

In the mean time, K'Tzuni abstains (2).

Dolor, AYE (2). If nothing else, this gives the Landsraad something to do.

Elwynn AYE(7). I'll see about reworking the whole treaty system after this.

Passed 19 - 6 - 2