Shireroth

You might have noticed that people have been taking countal positions all over the place lately. I'm not going to comment on whether this is a good thing or not, although I do believe we should not regulate it at the Imperial level because if we did regulate it we'd have to go back to telling the Duchies how to organise their internal structure again. It's just that there is a problem that arises from this. We used to be able to do with very little regulation on Duchy citizenship because everyone was "anchored" to the Duchy they had feudal positions in, whether Count, Baron or Duke, so even without regulation everyone clearly had precisely one Duchy of residence. Now these days nobility still anchors you, but we have some citizens with multiple positions of Count but no positions of nobility... well, OK, we only have one citizen like that (vasroe) but it's likely to remain a problem in the future.

I think we're going to have to amend http://shireroth.org/shirewiki/Lawbook#D:_Residency a bit. At the very least the Lawbook should mention that everyone with Shirithian citizenship must have precisely one Duchy citizenship (though I guess we'll also have to give territories, protectorates and other treaties some consideration). Also, that changes of citizenship must be registered with the MiniImNat.

Also if someone's feeling really legislative-y you could go ahead and define "you follow the laws of the guy whose land you live on" in legal terms (to make the earlier addition of landless nobles more meaningful), or define what happens if someone says "I wanna live in Duchy X" and then Duke X rejects said citizen after zie already has Shirithian citizenship (or in any of the other possible situations where someone will have Shirithian citizenship but no Duchy of residence)... but, most likely, we don't really have any need to legislate those kinds of things for the time being.

Any thoughts? Ideas on what to do with the current text? Anybody want to write the bill proper?

Is there a problem? Why do we need to define a duchy of residence (just a question)?

Record keeping. I don't like the idea of someone owning counties in several duchies.

Malliki Tosha wrote:Is there a problem? Why do we need to define a duchy of residence (just a question)?

Well, mostly it's that the duchy colour thing came back to bite me since Aryeztur asked for vasroe to be coloured Goldshirithian but he's already a count in Elwynn... so, you know, I could have just asked him but that would have been missing the point considering this is a micronation

Ari Rahikkala wrote:well, OK, we only have one citizen like that (vasroe) but it's likely to remain a problem in the future.

I am like this also, my only positions are Count of Asantelian and McCallavre.

I thought, given that a person is only Count of one County, that Ducal residence automatically made that person a resident of its immediate superior.

e.g. I am Count of Lac Glacei, which automatically makes me Yardistani, since that's my superior in terms of hierarchy.

EDIT: Ok, I didn't read all the above. So how is it legal to be a count of more than one county? If that's the case, then I have some monopolizing to do.

Ryan wrote:EDIT: Ok, I didn't read all the above. So how is it legal to be a count of more than one county? If that's the case, then I have some monopolizing to do.

Because Counts don't exist in Imperial Law.

That doesn't stop the fact that, theoretically, I could assume the mantle of multiple counties and subsequently control a majority of a ducal territory in order to exert complete dominance over it.

Again, that's just theory. I'm far too lazy to try it myself.

I'm honestly surprised we don't have a law forbidding people from being counts of more than one county.

Ryan wrote:That doesn't stop the fact that, theoretically, I could assume the mantle of multiple counties and subsequently control a majority of a ducal territory in order to exert complete dominance over it.

That's the problem, really.

No, actually, the problem is all my fault. At one point I held counties in 4 duchies simultaneously. This means I have 4 dukes. That's 4 different people besides the Kaiser I have to take orders from. Very conflicting.

It looks like Brookshire is getting a law that prohibits Brookshirians from holding counties outside Brookshire and vice versa.

Go us...

Yeah. Not sure we need a law on the Imperial level though. The counties play no role on the Imperial level, and if Dukes want to have counts in name only, that should be up to them.

Malliki Tosha wrote:Yeah. Not sure we need a law on the Imperial level though. The counties play no role on the Imperial level, and if Dukes want to have counts in name only, that should be up to them.

Fully agree. Being a count is entertaining for the count but extremely pointless in the grand scheme of the power structure. It's basically a way to give someone some land and tell them to have fun with it. If a duchy wants to give someone outside their borders that right as a gift, honor, agreement, or what-have-you, it doesn't do anything other than make Ari's job of assigning colored names slightly more interesting. Think of the possibilities of blending colors!

Okay, no, that would be terrible.

Plus, you have to admit that owning land you shouldn't really have any claim to is very feudal. Weren't most marriages back on those days for the purpose of land acquisition and defense agreements? We're doing the same thing with less weddings. Giving a foreign resident a county is a good way to keep them on your good side.

Vasroe left Elwynn. He's only in Goldshire now, so there is no problem.

Malliki Tosha wrote:Yeah. Not sure we need a law on the Imperial level though. The counties play no role on the Imperial level, and if Dukes want to have counts in name only, that should be up to them.

Thirded.

No, if you read the OP you'll find that's actually a fourthing rather than a thirding. This is specifically about citizenship, not about positions of count. I'll write a bill text sometime.

We have no problems with citizenship. What you are referring to is "residency", which is separate from citizenship. I am a citizen of Shireroth and resident of Brookshire. Residency doesn't play a major role in Shirerithian affairs. If you have a problem with what color to assign, issue a Ministerial regulation.

What about a box on the Census making you list a "primary residency" and then other "secondary residencies". That helps Duchies make their own laws to solve the problem. For example, one Duchy might choose to prohibit secondary residents, and another might ban someone from being a Duke or a Baron unless they were a primary resident there. It would also help Ari choose colors.

Has Ari had problems with assigning colors?

You need well-defined ducal residency for more than just name colouring, though. Ducal Judexes (Judices?) spring to mind.

I'm a little wary about writing laws to fit only hypothetical situations. Is this actually a problem, or do people just sort of "foresee" it becoming one?

I don't see this as a problem. Every citizen clearly has one "primary" residence, i.e. the one they put in their census. If they want count positions outside of their subdivision, fine, that doesn't affect anything. (although now with Brookshire's xenophobia... )

Harvey Steffke wrote:I'm a little wary about writing laws to fit only hypothetical situations. Is this actually a problem, or do people just sort of "foresee" it becoming one?

I guess I'll have to be honest, I'm not really being a good rationalist here. You see, I'm not trying to find out whether duchy residency is necessary or not. I've just already decided that it would be completely insane not to have it so I'm now trying to find reasons *why* it's necessary

Allot wrote:I don't see this as a problem. Every citizen clearly has one "primary" residence, i.e. the one they put in their census. If they want count positions outside of their subdivision, fine, that doesn't affect anything. (although now with Brookshire's xenophobia... )

That kinda works, I guess. For cultural reasons I usually to put my residence down as Musica, but I can stop doing that...

Allot wrote:I don't see this as a problem. Every citizen clearly has one "primary" residence, i.e. the one they put in their census. If they want count positions outside of their subdivision, fine, that doesn't affect anything. (although now with Brookshire's xenophobia... )

It's not xenophobia, it's keeping things from being the mucked up mess of people owning things everywhere and having power over other duchies that we have now.

It's not untrue to say that in real life there have been instances of divided lands and nobility extending over territories claiming different allegiances. e.g. Burgundy, Low Countries, Papal States, Habsburgs, etc.

On the opposite hand, this does make it rather difficult to manage allegiances, property ownership, and an economy. Touching on each respectively;
-Would a secondary residence in, say Elwynn, be subservient to a primary residence in Brookshire?
-Would a secondary residence be property of the primary residence's duchy?
-How would taxes be extracted? Would a secondary residence have its taxes split between both duchies?

This raises a number of issues which, while minor, are rather annoying if you want to micromanage the system better.

Ryan wrote:On the opposite hand, this does make it rather difficult to manage allegiances, property ownership, and an economy. Touching on each respectively;
-Would a secondary residence in, say Elwynn, be subservient to a primary residence in Brookshire? Nope. The secondary residence is still under its home duchy
-Would a secondary residence be property of the primary residence's duchy? Nope. See first.
-How would taxes be extracted? Would a secondary residence have its taxes split between both duchies? Taxes are extracted from each Duke.

This raises a number of issues which, while minor, are rather annoying if you want to micromanage the system better.

This is not a problem really, but it could be if we want it to.

Seriously, the system works as it is now. I see no reason to change things just because this or that could happen, theoretically. Brookshire has taken the first step.

A Duchy can always extract taxes from all counts in the Duchy, whether they claim primary residency there or not.

Now, there is a deterrent, good sir.