Shireroth

Okey. Leave Dukes alone.

Remove all mention of Barons. (grrr. have it Ari..).

Create a status known as "Minor Noble" which shall take the place of what Barons were. But leave what they are called up to the Dukes. Minor Nobles have a fief like Barons do. Minor Nobles have all the powers and such that Barons do now in the Lawbook.

Give Dukes 10 votes they can keep for themselves or give some to their Minor Nobles. Just like the old but not ancient system.

I think this MIGHT be what Ari wanted, kinda. But I seem some potential in the system to have it be able to fit each subdivision better.

Then, grant Minor Nobles with votes (given by their Duke), access to the Landsraad. So you can be a Minor Noble, but may not have a voice/vote in the Landsraad. Since there are only 10 votes per duchy, and the duke must keep 5 (as per the old system), only 5 Minor Nobles max can come from a Duchy. This should help keep numbers down.

I really, really like this.

(Well, I was trying to make a big nice post with cultural overtones in Straylight that would demonstrate precisely what I want and why the Free Duchies bill changes the things it does, but it turned out I'm still as terrible about writing anything cultural in Straylight as ever, so I guess I'll just make my point here...)

No, this is not what I want. But we're making progress, I think. Not in the sense that I think this proposal is better than what we have, I think it's worse (well, depending on whether you mean that a noble should be able to speak in the Landsraad even if zie has zero votes - if not, then this is a neutral development). But we're making progress in the sense that you've managed to clear away the baggage so I can concentrate precisely on the real problem. Here it is:

Minor Nobles have a fief like Barons do. Minor Nobles have all the powers and such that Barons do now in the Lawbook.

You're giving the Dukes a package deal. "Oh, hey, you want local leaders in your duchy with more prestige than the other leaders? OK, so here's the wildly diverse package of rights you'll have to give them. They have to be considered nobility, for whatever that's worth. They have to be restricted from having a position of the same or higher level of prestige in another duchy, though they can have ones of lower prestige if they want to. They have to be the people in charge of holding trial in the precise same area as they otherwise rule over, and they have to be able to bear witness to oaths, which are considered to have significance all the way up to the Imperial level. Oh, and by recent addition, you also have to bring them with you to speak in the Landsraad."

That is what I mean when I say the Duchies don't have the freedom to arrange their internal government as they like. The system of package-deal baronies, or minor nobles, or whatever you want to call them, limits the possibilities for Dukes to design nifty positions for their subjects - ergo, package-deal baronies are what we should be moving toward when the country is small, not when it's prospering like now .

For what it's worth, I approve of oath-witnessing and Arbitering going together, and I approve of Landsraad membership being called nobility and being limited (in that you can't be noble in more than one duchy at a time). I don't even particularly mind land ownership going together with nobility, though I think it'd be kind of nifty if someone actually wanted to be a landless advisor/Landsraad sidekick to a Duke, and I think the system should allow that if possible. But I don't want a package deal. A Duke can't have the ability to set up zir Duchy the way zie and zir citizens want if the package deal is forced on them.

It's at times like these I wish I'd put some work into actually getting citizens into Straylight so I could show off the fancy structures the Lawbook doesn't allow for. Administrative courts, decision markets on Landsraad acts... few Duchies have made serious attempts at actually interestingly different systems of local government. Syr William's Ducal Decree #3 in Brookshire was one, but a poorly designed and quickly shot down by others, unfortunately...

So, with all that, here's my counterproposal:

Remove mention of Barons from the lawbook. It's just dead code by now.

Allow Dukes to ordain up to five citizens of their Duchy as Noble, under whatever name zie wants to call zir nobility. Give all Nobles the ability to speak in the Landsraad. Furthermore allow ten Landsraad votes per Duchy, which the Duke may distribute as zie wishes among the nobles under zir. Allow at most five Nobles per Duchy, and disallow either positions of Nobility from more than one Duchy or ones in a Duchy that one isn't a citizen of (if you recall the Kildare buyout you'll understand why I prefer the former).

Separately, allow Dukes to extend the Judex into their Duchies, by appointing local Arbiters, and defining their area of responsibility (which might be arbitrary; for instance, criminal and civil cases might go to different Arbiters, etc.)

Separately, allow Dukes to arrange land borders as displayed on the MCS map and Shirithian maps, and appoint local leaders in whatever kind of authority they like.

hmm.. I suppose I find your proposal acceptable. But what's before the Landsraad now isn't. It's just erasing the 2nd tier of nobility without putting something else in place.

I generally support these developments. Don't have much to add right now other than a

Sounds interesting, I like Ari's general idea (give Duke's freedom to arrange it how they will) and Erik's general idea (10 votes, distributed by the Duke). I was going to suggest the 10 vote thing myself.

It was a good system. And will give power back to the lower nobles.

This is good.

Who wants to draft new procedures?

That's the part I wasn't looking forward to. Give me time....

A. Members of the Landsraad
1. Membership in the Landsraad is determined in accordance with the Imperial Charter and includes only those with votes to cast.

B. Votes
1. Each Duke is allocated 10 votes that they may cast, or assign to subordinate nobles.
2. A Duke must retain 5 of these 10 votes at all time.
3. Votes possessed and cast by a noble must always be integers.
4. A Duke may assign the remaining 5 votes as he sees fit among his subordinate nobles.

C. Bills
1. The Landsraad passes changes to the LawBook. Each bill is presented in the form of an unambiguous change to the LawBook, and must have a name used by no bill presented before it. Any member of the Landsraad, and the Praetor, can present a bill for voting.

D. Voting
1. After a bill has been presented to the Landsraad, there is a period of exactly four days (96 hours) during which the members of the Landsraad can then vote on it. Each member, or their emissary, may cast zir complete vote in any unambiguous way to represent a vote of aye or nay. A vote only applies to a bill exactly as it has been presented. At the end of the period, the Praetor counts the votes, announces the result, and if the ayes outnumber the nays, updates the LawBook with the changes.
2. The Landsraad voting shall be public.

E. The Praetor
1. The Praetor is appointed in accordance with the Imperial Charter and has the rights and obligations established therein.

F. Speech
1. The Kaiser, any member of the Landsraad or their emissary, and the Praetor, can freely express their opinion on any bill presented in the Landsraad. Any person may post in the Landsraad, but the posts of people not expressly allowed to speak freely in the Landsraad are placed in a moderation queue. If the Praetor considers a post in the moderation queue to be important for the members voting on a bill to be aware of, he or she may approve the post to be included. However, the Praetor has no obligation to do this for any post.

G. The Deputy Prætor
1. The Deputy Prætor shall act in stead of the Prætor should the Prætor not be available.
2. When acting as Prætor in the manner stated in 1., the Deputy Prætor shall have all powers and duties of the Prætor.
3. In G. 2., "not be available", shall be considered to mean either a stated leave of absence or if the Prætor does not, within 48 hours, fulfill zir obligations to the Landsraad.

Give that a go.

If we're editing the procedures, do you think we could work in some specifications as to when/how bills are passed?

like if there's an absolute majority but 96 hours hasn't passed the Praetor can pass it anyways (same for failing)?

if that matters. or is that an unnecessary regulation?

It's tradition at the least.

And what if it's a tie..?

Not sure that needs to be added. If there aren't MORE AYEs than NAYs the bill fails. I always "Defer" it back to the Front Gate if it's a tie.

B.2. = no

As I said, the votes are always belonging to the Duke anyway, no matter how zie assigns them, therefore zie should be allowed to allocate votes as zie pleases.

You can get around it by appointing an emissary anyway. I (weakly) prefer a lawbook with less rather than more loopholes, so... no limit on retained votes, please?

I was thinking about this, and you can't really get around it by appointing an emissary. With B2 in place, at least 5 votes have to belong to the same person, either Duke or emissary, but without it you could distribute 2 votes to everyone among five people, or something.

Scott is right. But I won't support the removal of B2.


What if I prohibit any given baron(lesser noble) from having more then 5 of the votes. Then if a duke wants to water their votes down.. So be it. Those of us who want a strong Duke can have it.

Or.

2. A Duke must always have the largest single vote among himself and his lesser nobles.
3. A Lesser noble may never have more then 5 votes.

Now a Duke must keep 2 and give out the other 8 to 8 lesser nobles. But keeps lesser nobles from threatening more conservative Dukes. Would this work?

I'm not quite sure why you're so insecure about a duke being outvoted by a lesser noble. A lesser noble would only do so with votes allocated to them by their own duke.

So? I still don't wanna be outvoted by a lesser noble. The Dukes should have the most votes, that is my opinion.

If a lesser noble can outvote a Duke. Then the lesser noble should be the Duke.

I agree. Everything will be weird.

Can we have a Landsraad rep roll call? All those that may vote in the Landsraad (should be six people) in favor of letting each duke allocate his votes however he wishes, say Aye or something similar.

To help me, a relatively recent citizen, better understand this debate, I would like to ask a question. According to Shirerithian feudal custom, are Counties higher than Baronies? According to English feudal custom, in which counties are called earldoms, they are. The organization of the Shirerithian forums, which places Counties at a level above Baronies, is what makes me ask this question.

Also, from what I have read and been able to understand of this bill and the associated discussion, I have arrived upon the following two positions:

- I oppose any diminishing of the legislative influence of the Counts, of which I am one. I think that there would need to be first extensive discussion of how it would help or hurt Counts ability to contribute more effectively towards legislative deliberations and decision-making.

- I support a higher noble having the capability to override in the legislature lower nobles who are under his or her own domain. For example, if all 10 barons in their duchy have one vote against the duke and the duke has 7 votes because he is duke, the Duke's 7 votes should override the barons' collective 10. The Rt. Hon. Lord Mortis put it well in saying "If a lesser noble can outvote a Duke. Then the lesser noble should be the Duke." The Duke is a higher title and that should come with more and overriding authority both in legislative and in other aspects.

Duke->Baron->Count. That should answer most of your questions.

I thank the Rt. Hon. Lord the Wise. However I did know beforehand, while composing the example in my last post, that Dukes were higher than both Barons and Counts.

More questions: Does the Landsraad require use of the third person? Does its Front Gate?

No, those forums do not. We are pretty informal. Only Dukes or Emissaries may speak in the Landsraad though.

Thanks.

Malliki Tosha wrote:Can we have a Landsraad rep roll call? All those that may vote in the Landsraad (should be six people) in favor of letting each duke allocate his votes however he wishes, say Aye or something similar.

I didn't know this thread had gotten moved into the Landsraad proper from the Front Gate. I thought this was where we argued things over and struck compromises, not where we vote on things

Speaking of compromise, I suppose I can accept having lesser nobles limited to 5 votes. It's not perfect, but with a little bit of bending of rules in the Brookshirithian spirit you can get around most of the limitations . I'll be having a look at the lawbook wrt. implementing the rest of this...

vasroe wrote:I thank the Rt. Hon. Lord the Wise. However I did know beforehand, while composing the example in my last post, that Dukes were higher than both Barons and Counts.

More questions: Does the Landsraad require use of the third person? Does its Front Gate?

Yeah, as Mike pointed out, we're pretty informal. Even when you do want to be really formal the honorifics are pretty simple.