Shireroth

Posted: **Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:40 am**

1. One week after the passage of this bill, all posts from Secret Evil Plans and Classified Archives more than six months old will be moved to Classified Archives and declassified.
2. Before the passage of this act, any official with the clearance to view classified information may mark a post older than six months as containing information that is still sensitive. Any such posts will not be declassified.

Posted: **Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:42 am**

Explanation: Babkha did something similar recently, and it was fun to read through all their old classified stuff from 2003. The Anticans are compiling a history of their country, and the documents from our various struggles with the early Republic would add to that effort. There's nothing I can think of in SEP or elsewhere that's still sensitive.

Posted: **Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:52 am**

Fantastic idea. Bravo, Scott.

Posted: **Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:59 am**

No. the point of SEP is that it is NEVER declassified. I oppose this vehemently.

Posted: **Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:06 am**

Thank god! Controversy! Finally! The Landsraad lives! IT LIVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ahem.

But if they are not relevant to current affairs, then why not declassify them? What purpose do they serve if they're from 2003? To remind you and the MoMA of stuff that happened five years ago? THE PUBLIC HAS A RIGHT TO KNOW!

Posted: **Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:09 am**

The public has NO rights in Shireroth. Just privileges, granted by the Kaiser.

Posted: **Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:24 am**

Or the Landsraad, with the Kaiser's approval.

Posted: **Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:55 am**

No. the point of SEP is that it is NEVER declassified. I oppose this vehemently.

I'm not sure that's "the point". If someone told me that was the "point" of SEP, I'd have stopped using SEP and placed intelligence operations in some other forum that didn't have that "point". Why not declassify the details of, say, our intelligence-gathering information on Attera, now when Attera's long dead and it doesn't jeopardize any of our sources or programs or foreign relations?

The public has NO rights in Shireroth. Just privileges, granted by the Kaiser.

Exactly. And that's why I'm requesting the Landsraad,a body duly appointed by the Kaiser, to grant people the privilege of viewing old records, instead of standing on the street demanding it as a right.

Posted: **Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:38 pm**

I support this legislation. I would like it worded as an amendment to the LawBook though, since that is what we pass around here.

Posted: **Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:52 pm**

I thought amendments to the Lawbook were for permanent things, and that one-time affairs, like treaties of recognition, giving someone an honor, et cetera were not amendments. This is a one time thing, so I didn't phrase it as editing the lawbook.

Posted: **Sun Oct 11, 2009 3:25 pm**

I fully support this. I can't imagine why documents from years ago where all of the players and countries involved have long since passed would need to stay classified.

Posted: **Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:17 pm**

In case it wasn't already obvious, I support this. I think that if the idea is that we want to set a limit (say 6 months) after which ALL future SEP will be declassified then it needs to go into the lawbook. But that's far more controversial, since we don't know what will be in the SEP at that point, so I think having it as a one-time event is better, and the Landsraad can decide to do it again if they want to.

Posted: **Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:30 pm**

Don't support this at all. Some things need to stay buried.

Posted: **Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:42 pm**

A one time event is certainly easier than any sort of rule that you have to keep watching for a six month mark then release the posts.

Posted: **Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:53 pm**

When Lukedu and I made the SEP long ago it was with the understanding that it would remain classified. If we had wanted it to eventually be revealed, it would have been put into another secret forum. The SEP was for to remain classified, because you never know when something you think it's important, or embarrassing, will be so again. Why should I post stuff that might be controversial, if that stuff is just gonna get unmasked in 6 months. (which is way to short a time even if it were to be declassified. I suggest 3-5 years).

I'm sure there is stuff in there that I still wouldn't want revealed.

If you do pass this. (which I'm sure will happen despite my objections). Make declassification the exception, not the rule. If you want something declassified you have to find it and get it looked over and approved. Putting the burden on the declassifier. This protect us from letting out something by accident.

Posted: **Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:17 pm**

With respect, founder,

You have access to the SEP, yes? Then take the ones that you feel are embarrassing and mark them as such, and they will not be declassified. The bill has allowed for this. If you really want to, just say "Hey, none of this is allowed to go!" and none of it will.

Also, how will people ask permission to declassify certain documents if they don't have access to them in the first place? Or will only those with clearance be allowed to declassify? I believe you may have misunderstood the purpose of this bill.

Posted: **Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:17 am**

Oh sorry, I just updated myself on the Charter. Non-permanent measures are allowed for. I suggest we reword the bill as follows:
1. the bill is passed
2. officials mark posts and threads that are not to be declassified (within a set amount of time)
3. the rest is declassified

Having a law that says that stuff happens before the law is passed is kinda weird.

Posted: **Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:39 pm**

I still feel the burden should be on those that want to declassify things. That way we have less risk of letting something out we didn't mean to. It's just not feasible to ask us who want things to remain classified to have to go in and look through EVERYTHING to make sure something doesn't get let through that shouldn't. Most of my objections would be relieved if the burden was on the declassifier. As it stands only those with clearance can mark something to remain classified, so no matter how you look at it, only those with clearance can be part of the process. Scott wanted things to be opened up that are of historic importance, thus suggests to open EVERYTHING. I want Everything to remain classified. I see just declassifying select things as a fair compromise. My security concerns are mostly assuaged, and he gets to make public the various things he wants, with lower risk of accidental exposure.

1. Posts from Secret Evil Plans and Classified Archives more than six months old may be selected for declassification.
2. After a reasonable period of time, posts that have been selected for declassification, not deemed to be still sensitive, will be declassified.

btw: Don't refer to me as Founder. It's not a title I use. Count, Baron or just Erik is better.

Posted: **Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:39 pm**

Let's compromise. Everything older than two or three years gets auto-declassified. Everything younger than that can be marked by someone as "stuff that's been requested for declassification" by movement to a temporary holding forum. Anyone with classified clearance can go through the stuff on the holding forum and mark it as "still worth keeping secret" if they want. If there's a controversy and neither the pro-declassification or anti-declassification sides will back down, it's the Kaiser's decision.

I warn you, however, that I will probably mark a substantial percentage of things as "requested declassification", and you'll just have to go through all of it.

Posted: **Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:02 pm**

I want Everything to remain classified.

If you had reasons other than "cuz screw you guys," it would make it a lot easier to see your side of the position and support any sort of compromise, but in four posts you haven't really said anything other than your unexplained disagreementl.

Posted: **Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:22 pm**

yeah, if something has no relevance to the current times than its perfectly alright to let the public see it, and release it for the use of historians and such

i mean, i certainly dont want the Shirerithian public school new edition text books to be wrong about things that only happened a few years ago, yet for some reason were put in the books as the final chapter, with unproven information of all sorts *coughing fit*

Posted: **Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:52 pm**

It was fun declassifying things, especially the still relevant things. First, it clears the air on assumptions from the past. Second, its more interesting to read if its still relevant. Third, since there isn't anything really needed to be kept a secret (with no bad guys left), it might as well be let out.

Posted: **Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:02 pm**

1. One week from this bill's passage, all posts in the forums Secret Evil Plans and Classified Archives that are older than two (2) earth years shall be automatically declassified and placed in the normal (public access) "Archives" forum.
2. A temporary holding forum shall be created, with access granted to the same users who have classified access to the forums listed in (1).
3. All topics in the forums listed in (1) that are older than six months but younger than two years shall be moved to the temporary holding forum.
4. A user with classified access may mark a topic in the holding forum with a "Request for Declassification" post.
5. One week after such a topic has been marked in the manner described in (4), IF and ONLY IF no objections have been made by any other members with classified access, the topic shall be moved to the general public archives.
6. A user with classified access may mark a topic in the holding forum with a "Still Worth Keeping Secret" post.
7. A topic marked in the manner described in (6) shall be moved back to its original forum immediately and may not be moved again for six months.
6. Should a dispute arise between two parties, the Kaiser or Imperial Steward shall mediate.

Posted: **Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:50 am**

Erik, do you want to become Catholic? We have a nice library in the Vatican with many books which are still secret till today.

Posted: **Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:40 pm**

OKey.. here's a fair example. If we ever do something devious, maybe even underhanded, either as country or as individuals, this would allow that to become public. Even years later it could harm ones reputation or how well others may trust us. Since we won't always remember what we did that was devious, underhanded or just plain dishonest, and someone else surely will and point it out, it makes it hard to keep these things hidden if we are airing everything. Instead we should just air those things we know are still safe after a review, instead of trying to catch it amid all the myriad of posts you intend to reveal. Security is easier to maintain when you stop everything and only let through what is safe, then let everything through and try to stop what isn't. We should assume everything is unsafe to release until we have made sure it is safe.

My concern is about security. Do I have anything in mind that I think needs to be stopped? Not really, and that's my point, I can't remember everything that's happened in the last few years.

I already gave you a compromise Scott. I would prefer releasing nothing. But if you must release things, then go through and find the posts you want to have reviewed for release, don't just auto-release everything.

Posted: **Sun Oct 18, 2009 3:58 pm**

Someone wanna propose Allot's compromise? Or anything?

Posted: **Sun Oct 18, 2009 6:06 pm**

OKey.. here's a fair example. If we ever do something devious, maybe even underhanded, either as country or as individuals, this would allow that to become public. Even years later it could harm ones reputation or how well others may trust us. Since we won't always remember what we did that was devious, underhanded or just plain dishonest, and someone else surely will and point it out, it makes it hard to keep these things hidden if we are airing everything. Instead we should just air those things we know are still safe after a review, instead of trying to catch it amid all the myriad of posts you intend to reveal. Security is easier to maintain when you stop everything and only let through what is safe, then let everything through and try to stop what isn't. We should assume everything is unsafe to release until we have made sure it is safe.

My concern is about security. Do I have anything in mind that I think needs to be stopped? Not really, and that's my point, I can't remember everything that's happened in the last few years.

True, at least Babkha is honest in its deceptiveness.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:20 am**

I still insist on my compromise. Allot's isn't a compromise, it's exactly what you wanted from the start.

Also, just dumping declassified topics in the general archive is going to be confusing. Especially if done en-mass like you want.

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:23 pm**

Scorch, you're right, I saw Allot had formatted everything all nice and assumed he'd just rewritten what we'd agreed to before. Someone with Landsraad access wanna take care of that?

Posted: **Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:08 pm**

Nothing can or will be done about the bill currently on the Landsraad floor. I do however urge all Dukes to vote Nay so that we can pass the correct version of the bill.

Shireroth

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