Shireroth

In response to http://shireroth.kuroshiro.net/forum/vi ... =5&t=10629

1) The Shirerithian Embassy in Ashkenatza has always believed the existence of a Trans-Elwynn Autonomous Region to be an internal Ashkenatzan affair. It makes no claims on Shirerithian land, but rather is a subdivision of Ashkenatza with significant autonomy. This does no damage to Shireroth, and indeed it is probably to our advantage to have a "buffer state" between ourselves and the fast-growing power to our west. However, Max Rosenthal of Ashkenatza has mentioned the possibility of ethnic Elw living in the region. If the Ashkenatzim are interested, it may be an opportunity for cultural cooperation with them to ensure this minority is respected and to help design their state. However, any overture we make in this direction should be clearly phrased as a project to benefit both nations, not as a threat, a demand, or any other claim of Shireroth's to have any business in Ashkenatzan affairs. Also, although I will need Mr. Rosenthal's confirmation, I believe it would be more politically correct to refer to our neighbors as "Ashkenatzi" rather than "Jewish".

2) Are you sure that Ardashir of Alalehzamin is the right person to send to Amokolia as an ambassador? He and Jess didn't get along very well last time I checked. Or are you hoping that the power in Amokolia is being wielded more by Ryan Caruso these days? (Also, while we're making a wish list of Amokolian territory, the people of Bjorngard if nowhere else still remember that Lesser Automatica was for years a Shirerithian island. Just sayin' )

3) This seems like a good way to provoke a crisis with Ashkenatza, and a terrible way to do anything else. I oppose this measure.

Lets light Ashkenatza on fire.

You're sure bellicose when it's not your country we're talking about. Amokolia controls more of the Elwynn than Ashkenatza does

Thank you Scott for making me come to my senses. I am still worried though about the Ashkenatzi threat towards Batavia.

If there are people who identify themselves as Elw, Elfinshi, Elwynnese, or Shirerithian, culturally, ethnically or religiously, then we should help them. In that case they have come from these lands and do have attachment to us. Isn't that a good way to have a rapporteur sent there to give the Landsraad a rapport on the matter later?

I apologize regarding referring the Ashkenatzim as Jewish. There are of course non-Jews in the Ashkenatzi government, such as the Culture Minister, an ethnic Tellian. I stand corrected.

Regarding Amokolia, it seems that it's a lost cause. Jess is adamant that nothing changes. However, I would really much like the source of Elwynn to be in Elwynnese hands. Not politically, but culturally. We, Elwynnese, have an affinity for the source of Elwynn, the holiest of waters.

Number 3. When the Ashkenatzi government has threatened our good friends the Batavians with war, then what should we do? Let them have their war ships in our river?

I agree that a threat to Batavia is a serious problem. However, I think it would be better handled by the Small Commonwealth. That way, we can present a unified front and we can include Batavia themselves in the discussion. It will also look more like an international intervention, and be less likely to start a personal grudge between Shireroth and Ashkenatza. We might even be able to gather support for a Commonwealth task force.

Your worry about the rights of the Elw in Ashkenatza, while touching, is the same worry as the Ashkenatzans' worry about the rights of the Askhenatzim in Batavia. We need to create a protocol for handling these sorts of issues, instead of dealing with each of them on a case-by-case basis. One possibility might be a Rights of Minorities Commonwealth-style treaty which we convince Ashkenatza to sign.

I agree that a threat to Batavia is a serious problem. However, I think it would be better handled by the Small Commonwealth. That way, we can present a unified front and we can include Batavia themselves in the discussion. It will also look more like an international intervention, and be less likely to start a personal grudge between Shireroth and Ashkenatza. We might even be able to gather support for a Commonwealth task force.

Agreed.

Your worry about the rights of the Elw in Ashkenatza, while touching, is the same worry as the Ashkenatzans' worry about the rights of the Askhenatzim in Batavia. We need to create a protocol for handling these sorts of issues, instead of dealing with each of them on a case-by-case basis. One possibility might be a Rights of Minorities Commonwealth-style treaty which we convince Ashkenatza to sign.

I beg to differ. I don't go around saying that Shireroth go about claiming the land in which they live unless the mother country gives them autonomous status within that country, as they have done with Batavia.

What does everyone think of me sending the following message to Ashkenatza?

The tension between Ashkenatza and the Small Commonwealth has been tolerable up to now, but with the recent Batavian situation it threatens to mushroom into a continent-spanning cold war, or worse. The normal avenues of reconciliation - conferences, negotiations, embassies - all remain open.

However, the quickest way to remove any feeling of hostility between the Commonwealth and yourselves would be for you to join the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth is not a subordination of nationality but a union of convenience between free nations. It does not require any special level of participation, but allows for a mix-and-match attitude towards its various treaties.

In particular, I think we could all benefit from a unified Commonwealth position on minorities. You are rightly concerned about the situation of Batavian Jews, and you have recently mentioned the thriving Elw in your Trans-Elwynn Autonomous Region. If the Small Commonwealth can come up with a unified policy towards minority rights, and enforce it impartially across Micras, this would be a victory for all of us. If you wanted to draft the appropriate documents, I am sure the Commonwealth would consider it.

Think it over.

I think that's good.

Same here.

On the matter of Amokolia and the Elwynn river, I would bring to your attention the fact that the council are still extremely unlikely to allow Shireroth to claim any more land.

That blows.

There are indeed some tensions between Batavia and Ashkenatza about a region as large as Gaza ( ). The Batavians aren't too happy to install an autonomous region for the already integrated Jews in the Batavian community and there is little support to give the land (back).

My contacts in Ashkenatza inform me that it would be a mite difficult for Shireroth to convince the hard-line nationalists of the benefit of a comprehensive agreement on minority rights whilst trying to unilaterally annex the watershed of the West Bank of the Elwynn. (Trans-Elwynn? West Bank, Disputed water rights? Jews? Ye Gods...). The Diaspora Elw have been allowed to live under their customary laws, and if the Ashkenatzim of the lands ceded to Batavia are accorded similar autonomy I do not believe that there will be a long term obstacle to continued peace and good will between all nations.

The Khan of Vijayanagara wrote:The Diaspora Elw have been allowed to live under their customary laws, and if the Ashkenatzim of the lands ceded to Batavia are accorded similar autonomy I do not believe that there will be a long term obstacle to continued peace and good will between all nations.

The Batavian government is not very eager to give the Ashkenatzim autonomy between the Batavian borders.

And I am sure the Ashkenatzim Government is looking forward to an official response on the subject from an accredited representative of the Batavian Government. Nonetheless I thank you for the observation, it has been noted.

The Khan of Vijayanagara wrote:And I am sure the Ashkenatzim Government is looking forward to an official response on the subject from an accredited representative of the Batavian Government. Nonetheless I thank you for the observation, it has been noted.

Take in mind I'm not an official representative. But I can assure you that most of the population will not agree with the terms.
I like those guys, makes the elections a bit more interesting.

The Batavian Jews are happy with the current situation. A proof from the propaganda office:




Maybe this will lead to war?

Could you tell Maksym (or if he reads this) my reaction to his post (I remember having an account there, don't know the password anymore )?

I fully agree with him that simulation is an important part of micronations. However, don't forget Batavia is one of the only Dutch nations that has simulation / fictional history / etc.
Some, a minority, of the population are against it (they think it makes our nation less serious, I personally don't agree and find it an important part of the Batavian nation). The border conclict is probably a negative word for this. But it's a newspaper afterall, that's sometimes provocating.

Oh, tell to him that he's reading an article. Guests and members without visa can't read in the government buildings, I think. The debates in government haven't started yet: there are elections. Only the Hogerhuis (chamber of nobles) has talked about the matter, but can't decide much.

And I think he's making a mistake: I never said there was no border conflict (I wrote the article and made it a border conflict! ), I think he meant Gustaaf. A border conflict in the good way... not the bad way (gives us something to talk about, etc.).


Just a question tot the their government (not as a representative, keep that in mind): will Ashkenatza give all, or a part, of the land back that they got from the conference? I think not, so why should Batavia? Think about all those poor rich Jews... integrated and living together with Batavians... then their are people, representatives of a neigbouring nation, that want to ruin / change (and so ruining) there lifes by ripping it of the other country.
I like this situation. I will write a (dutch) wiki-article about the Jewish minority within Batavia.

I'll be sure to pass it along.

I'm not entirely clear how eroth is involved in this mess. But the statement Scott suggests sending to Ashkanatza does not seem like a statement of resolution, but an opportunistic statement of empire building. Regardless of the nature of the small commonwealth, I do not see how this would benefit Ashkanatza or any other party involved.

Hesam, the Small Commonwealth aspires to be more like NATO or the EU than like the British Commonwealth. Joining it isn't a way of saying you recognize Shireroth as your boss, it's a way of joining a group of nations working within a common military, diplomatic, and legal framework.

A while back, there was some talk (never too serious) about Russia joining NATO. The thought was that NATO was a useful group, but having Russia excluded from it made NATO-Russia rivalry too inevitable. So let Russia join and the problem goes away. That's the same rationale I'm using here.

(I admit that the current symbols of the Small Commonwealth don't do a great job of conveying this, but that's because the Small Commonwealth was created before anyone knew what they were going to do with it. This was a dumb move at the time, but no one including the other Small Commonwealth member nations wants to do anything about it, so whatever.)

So the only thing really achieved is that by offering Ashkanatza membership in the Small Commonwealth, they won't feel as though the Grand Commonwealth is attempting to war against them.

Hesam Jayatar wrote:So the only thing really achieved is that by offering Ashkanatza membership in the Small Commonwealth, they won't feel as though the Grand Commonwealth is attempting to war against them.

Excellent idea, isn't it?
ISN'T IT?!

Jonas, your cunning never ceases to amaze me.

(Sigh.)

Since the MCS is unlikely to acknowledge an enlargement of Shireroth, it is in our interests to stabilize the region, supporting friendly, stable governments among our neighbors.

The Elwynnese diaspora is free to retuen home since the Orchid Revolution.

Indeed, Askenatza should be asked to join the Small Commonwealth.

At least hack-propagandists have been having fun:

I've been trying to follow what's going on here but I must admit im having some trouble. Is there any chance of us getting the land back?

The odds ain't good mate.

Bollucks (I think)

Yes, the Ashkanatzi seem to really be unmovable on this issue.