Shireroth

The movement of money
For an economy to work, it is required that money be in movement. If money pools, it is not being used, and the economy stalls. The recent voting system in part helps to address this issue by encouraging the movement of money from dukes to the Imperial government, in turn requiring them to acquire money. But this only helps keep money moving in a select group of people at a single level of the nation. We must find ways in which to keep money moving at more levels, in every way possible.

The Failure of the Goods economy
Most economic models used in micronations have been based on the concept of the movement of goods, just as in the real world. People pay others for goods and services rendered. However, in micronations, there are very few goods and services to be rendered. Many can provide for themselves those things they do desire, and there are little to no required goods. In the past we have tried to create simulations that required people to pay basic living expenses to "live". But these systems became bogged down in bookkeeping, disinterest and complexity. Many did not feel they should be required to pay simply to continue to exist in a nation.
With a lack of conventional goods, and no favorable implementation of basic needs, there has been no reason for money to flow.

Professions, Guilds and Organizations
With the failure of goods based economies, we must look at other means by which to get money flowing. It is my conclusions that we cannot rely on any single methods. Goods will still exists in some small form, and help to move some small amount of money. People will still desire graphics, software, etc. But we must also find other means to get the money moving. To this end I support the development of specialized professions.
The Legal profession tried to create such a system here in Shireroth, but Loki III did a good job of killing off that plan. I would like to see that plan put back into action. Something such as a legal profession is not a "critical" part of the experience here, so making it required that a lawyer in the courts be licensed would not be that detrimental to the overall enjoyment of the nation. It would create a "need" but not one so pervasive as to be a threat to the enjoyment of the hobby.
Further, I would encourage the creation of more such licensed professions, guilds and organizations. Each would likely be unique in its approach, and thus I cannot outline them here. But the idea, I can put forward.
We are already moving toward this system with the creation of the BAR and the licenses for selling recwar units. But we need to take it just a few steps further. We must find as many ways as possible to create licensing systems, but not so much that we detract from the fun and enjoyment of the nation.
I know here are some who will object to this idea on principle, but if we are to have an economy we must find ways to build it into the system. We must either make it part of Shireroth as a whole, or have it not at all.

I desire the Landsraad to change the current law concerning representation in Shireroth to require a person to either represent themselves in court, or to hire a licensed legal professional.
Then, let us find more professions to create and legitimize in our nation.

You shouldn't have to pay to vote in your nation, either. I grow angrier by the second at this.

Technically, you can choose not to pay, and just use the 1 vote.

If you want to change the voting system, take it up with the Landsraad. I have no power over it. I cannot change how voting in the Landsraad is conducted. I myself prefer the 1 vote system.

But from an economic stand point, it is useful. You wanted to be a Duke Greg, welcome back to the system.

I wanted to be a duke again so I could have my voice heard, and represent those beneath me back in Yardistan. Each duchy is equal, but only if they pay for it? That's bull. It doesn't encourage activity, and it just makes people have to jump through one more beurocratic hoop. I'm sick of it, and if I have to split this nation in half again to get rid of this damned economy, I will. I've had enough.

Split it in half? Again? You've done it once?

Anyhoos. In theory, if you went with the system, instead of fighting it, you would desire more power for your duchy. In turn you would buy more votes with money, which you have earned from business deals or bounties.

I've seen your work Greg, even without caring about the system, you are productive and create things. Things the Minitrade will give you money for. I've seen you write stories and start recwars and stuff. Hell, Minitrade might even give you money for being a pain in my ass, as it does help the nation, to a point. Then just use some of that money you proly didn't even have to change what you do, to make, and buy some votes.

Hell, if you wanna make the system fail, make a bunch of money, buy lots of credits and start a vote to end the system, then use your voting power to make it pass, or make everyone else spend so much on credits to weaken them in the long run.

Or.. wait for those wish big votes now to lose those votes, and when they are smaller, and maybe broker, buy a lot of votes all at once and control the Landsraad, and do away with the system.

If you consider the system, it gives you another tool in the arsenal of mischief.

I did a pretty good job under Kaiser Reynardine... but that's not the point. The point is, that the Landsraad should be a governing body of equals (one duke, one vote), not a body where anyone can bully the other duchies just by buying votes. We should be bullying each other the proper way, with long-simmering fueds and inter-duchy wars.

I know the Kaiser is - and I encourage others to consider the econony being developed in Kildare.

No one individual has to be involved - but it could even bring about competition between Duchies, and it could advance the international economy at some point. I think it's well worth the effort and time.

I suggest talking to the Duke of Kildare - he knows than me as he is "Wise".

I don't like the system very much either. Money I would have invested in economy, stays in my hands because I know I will need to buy votes.

hmmmmm. An interesting point Jonas.

I contracted a lawyer a few weeks ago - for a monthly fee. (payable in Erb)

other professions -
I would like to have a sales rep for my Orbit War Ships sales - get paid a commission.
... also a consultant - again commission based
... an instructor for the Naval Academy - again commission based.

Soon I intend to operate another business
I would like someone to work in tt if anyone wants - again commission based, but business may be slow at first.

Um, when I get a more steady income I´ll hire for other jobs that will probably have a salary or be fee based like I pay my lawyer.

Sports would work if only more people were interested - there is an attempt at that already. I would get involved if I had more money right now. Oze suggested gambling along with the sports games.

Jonas, you rock my world.

This is crap, I agree with Greg.

Your unhelpful, simply stated opinion is duly ignore Jess, Thank you.

Austi has the spirit. Which means he can make money, and thus buy more votes and have more power for his Duchy.

I will do my bote buying ???? My name isn't Blagojevich.

Two days time, all current votes bought are gone. And personally, I don't plan to buy any more next month unless other Dukes do. I've spent too much on SCIRA and don't have the money left Not that I notice many other people spending on SCIRA, 'part from Mike. At least other people spent money on votes ...

Austi. As I understand it, the Dukes purchase vote credits in the Landsraad. Then those credits equal the weight of their votes. It's the legal and actual system.

Anyone can buy votes, actually ...

Yes, I understand the vote buying system - just don't like it. I consider it legal corruption, and not even very well designed.

I believe both the legal system and economy would be better off without the ability to determine who has more say just because they "grease" the palm of the political system. In addition ... even the ability to corrupt the system isn't being used very economically ... also, anyone can buy votes? - not really, what you buy is not your vote but you're really giving money that allows another person to overly influence an issue the way they want - it might be what you want too, but I haven't seen anything that says if I buy a vote I get to instruct how that vote is made.

It's half hearted corruption - if you want real corruption make it possible for people to buy the vote of a Duke under the table, where the Duke profits for being corrupt.


Just my view - first as a poor peasant and now as a poor Baron.

I don't disagree. Butm not a Duke, nor can influence the voting system, I might as well try to use the system as Kaiser to help the nation as a whole. Thus is my position.

*sigh* No one seems to escape the real world view standard on this, and realise that since we earn money by helping Shireroth, "buying" votes is another way of saying "those who put the most effort into developing Shireroth have the most say."

That part I understand. Thus my encouraging the system while we have it.

Philosophically I just like the simplicity of the traditional one vote system.

I would agree to the abolishment of the VC system if I get guarantees from a majority of the dukes that a system of professions are implemented afterwards, like the lawyer system and Orbat system.

Andreas the Wise wrote:Two days time, all current votes bought are gone. And personally, I don't plan to buy any more next month unless other Dukes do.

But someone will, if there's something worth voting on.

And even if there isn't, all dukes would be fools not to keep a lot of currency around, on the off chance something pops up that they can't afford (pun intended) to ignore.

Aren't anyone going to pick me up on my offer?

I will be happy to recommend your offer to the Council of Eliria.

I don't like the orbat system *or* the lawyer system. You throw me between a rock and a hard place.

Greg. You're never happy with anything...

I don't like the orbat system *or* the lawyer system. You throw me between a rock and a hard place.

May I suggest a look at the economic system being planned in Kildare - please look and tell us what you think, everyone.

That's slander! My kaiser slandered me! I NEED A FECKING LAWYER!

Guess you need the lawyer system...