Shireroth

I am inclined to agree. This is an issue for the community as a whole - it should go before the arbiter.

Hypathias mom. That doesn't explain the search to evidence to permanent ban Jess. First about the double account, then the age (macronational information). We all knew that Jess wasn't hundreds years old. And I'm pretty sure I lyed too about my age (not because I'm yo young but because I don't want to spread macronational information).

Now about the Tri-cit rule. Yes, indeed. Maybe he has broke the law, but a permanent ban for something like this? How can he learn something in Mors sake if he is banned forever?
It's just ridicule, the law needs to protect the citizens! If Jess' activity is in danger I could agree, but that isn't the case. It more looks a way to get rid of him.

He'll have to clean up his citizenships at the least to retain citizenship here.

If it comes to the Judex I will not hear the case personally. I'll allow Mike to hear the case and sit as advisory, and be the one to make the official judgment when it is reached (As I'm the only one with the power to do so).

But honestly, I don't see why age is a matter. I expect a number of people to lie on that one, to protect their RL identity. In a way, it's there to let people protect themselves. Only Micronational age is really important here.

The only thing we really need and should care about is a login name, and number of citizenships. Everything else is/should be optional.

Jonas wrote:Hypathias mom. That doesn't explain the search to evidence to permanent ban Jess. First about the double account, then the age (macronational information). We all knew that Jess wasn't hundreds years old. And I'm pretty sure I lyed too about my age (not because I'm yo young but because I don't want to spread macronational information).

Now about the Tri-cit rule. Yes, indeed. Maybe he has broke the law, but a permanent ban for something like this? How can he learn something in Mors sake if he is banned forever?
It's just ridicule, the law needs to protect the citizens! If Jess' activity is in danger I could agree, but that isn't the case. It more looks a way to get rid of him.

Jonas,

We have simply followed where the evidence led, and where the evidence led was to the conclusion that this is not an isolated or exceptional incident on Jess' part. Shireroth has always taken a tough stance on citizenship and these laws must be upheld. I was not in favour of peremenant exile, prefering instead, as far as is micronationally possible, for him to be given a harsh slap that he'll remember, and be done with it. However the Minister for Immigation and Naturalization has some grave concerns, especially since the violation of tri-cit came to light and these may well result in a harsher or indeed permenant sentence.

The law is also there to protect the community as a whole from the actions of citizens.

Alright, I defer to you in this affair, Erik. I'll let you and Mike make final determinations of Jess' future here.

Since it has already been brought before the Kaiser, I either have to wait for him to send it to the Judex or for Ardy to rescind his petition, and make one before the Judex. Forms must be obeyed.

Honestly, I say it's time to crack down on this. He apparently has blatant disregard for the truth, as shown by his chronic lying on citizenship forms.

I rescind this petition to enable the case to be brought to trial at the Imperial Judex.

It's an interesting discussion here.

The matter will go before the Judex.

*signs the relevant papers*

I appoint the Duke of Elwynn to be inquisitor, and the Baron of the Holy Lands may appoint his own advocate.

Bear in mind that I reserve the right to intervene

Someone will actually need to bring it before the court still.

I would say either the Inquisitor in the case or the Minister of Immigration and Naturalization.

That'll be me then.

The Minister could be called as a witness, I suppose.

Tadida.

Mike, remember, this one is yours. I'm just advisory in it, and there to keep it official.

Otherrs who could conceivably be called are Oroigawa Koreyasu and the Kaiser himself, who discovered the phony IP address, and the Khan, who verified other fraudulent information. I'm just not sure of the procedure for calling people invoolved in official capacities here.

Well I have no idea either but here we go anyway...

Ardashir Moqtada al-Osmani
Khan's Offices, Shirekeep

Imperial Inquisitor


Imperial Judex

Ardashir Moqtada al-Osmani, Imperial Inquisitor,
Plaintiff,
vs.
Baron Jess Heimer, alias Johannes Adelistmeiner, alias Johannes von Braun, alias Vilhelm Tjaarda, alias János Andrásné, alias Gerhard van Frysk,
Defendant



Case No.: TBC

The Imperial Republic vs Jess Heimer

For the love of Los...

Ardashir, can you solemnly swear that you have never entered another nation under false pretences for malicious reasons?

Does anyone believe Jess is actually hurting Shireroth in any way?

A severe warning over the tri-cit, plus general mockery over the fake citizenship application ought to do it. The Powers That Be in Yardistan can make a personal decision whether or not to remove his title, just as they could for any reason or no reason at all. Anything beyond that and we become (gasp) legalistic.

(the accusation that he put his age as 26 reminds me of what Dan Quayle said about his tax policy: "Some people have accused us of fooling people by calling tax increases 'revenue enhancements.' Not true. No one was fooled.")

Scott, I don't think there's much hope for shying away from being legalistic anymore. What with all these lawyers running around, it's inevitable. I was told yesterday that "the law must be upheld". Times like these I'm glad I live in Yardistan.

If you were Arbiter, that might well be a good point. But if Shireroth is going to have a developed legal system (and this seems to be the path we're taking) then the decision must be made by the Arbiter since I don't believe there is a provision for the accused to be judged by his peers.

That aside, one thing to consider if we're going down this route, is the inevitable conflict between legal precedent and tradition. Tradition has never been clearly defined in the charter, so it remains unknown what takes precedent and when. The Law or Tradition?

If Jess is allowed to go free unpunished, it damages the power of the law. If Jess is punished, a precedent is set, which damages tradition. How? Because, by establishing that precedent, it means that in future, when similar cases arise, they must be judged on the precedent.

So, for example:

If Scott for some hypothetical reason, decided to create a papel login, he would be judged based off of the precedent set at Jess' trial. If the outcome of Jess' trial is that he is banned, the hypothetical Scott situation would also face the possibility of banning.

So what right?

Ok, So if in this scenerio, Scott is banned, he is no longer involved with Hyperborea, which is his TRADITIONAL right.



There are a thousand scenerios where this could take place. So I urge the Landsraad, Arbiter AND Kaiser to begin planning for Tradition to be defined according to the Charter more clearly.

Jess is only being put on Trial to determine if he violated Tri-Cit. Nothing more. So far all that is proved is he had multiple cits, but not necessarily all at the same time. And Jess is correct, the law states he has 1 week to correct it if it's true they are all at the same time.

People are making this into a bigger case then it is. It's just a Tri-cit check. And more and more I think the MiniImNat should have handled it.

Well, I'm just saying the rule of "tradition" is at risk here. If you wish it to continue, I'd suggest insolating it from the law.

Tradition is nebulous enough to survive. And life has to continue. Tradition is mostly for those times when we lack a law, or the law is unclear.

There's always Imperial Decree #103 to handle a lot of these cases... not this one, though

Also known as Lawbook: Chapter I, Section C.

Considering the systemic laxness of Shireirthian law I shall be renewing the petition to address the original, he is doing enough to blacken his name and warrant banishment.

What do you meant it's hopeless?

Vilhelm is Ryan, and nothing to do with Jess.

The goose had better present itself with a verifiable identity for its claims to be admissable.

l'oie c'est moi (after Louis XIV)

the goose is me. i can confirm that jess and ryan are indeed two different persons.