Shireroth Economic Proposal

[Andreas the Wise]

I like Andreas' proposal. If we don't like our duke's vote we can move, or we can attempt a coup. I trust this won't happen a lot, but it's nice to have as a fall-back position in really seriously contested proposals. Normally, I feel we can discuss and come up with a duchy-wide consensus, but not always.

I'm also ready to see how the Kaiser's erb-based system works. It is an interesting proposition. As His Niftiness said, if it doesn't work, we can always cancel it.

Thanks. Thinking it through, this is probably better than withholding votes (too close to a democracy) as it forces Ducal solidarity. And Yvain say, if you have the most erbs behind the Duke, the Duke has to be careful to please you or risk you moving, and reducing his power, or attempting a coup and further reducing his power. Besides, a good coup every couple months would be fun for Shireroth, I'm sure ...

[Erik Mortis]

This kinda actually put the Republic into Imperial Republic...

[Yvain Wintersong]

What system. The non-existent economic one? or the voting one. We have no economic system, and the 1 vote per Duke was just so we could get the show on the road. What's the point of being a micronation if we can't build on the system. We aren't throwing out one system for another, we are taking the system we have, and adding to it. And if it doesn't work, we can revert back.

Duke Erik, are you talking to me? I'm not sure I understand how what you said relates to my comment.

. And Yvain say, if you have the most erbs behind the Duke, the Duke has to be careful to please you or risk you moving, and reducing his power, or attempting a coup and further reducing his power. Besides, a good coup every couple months would be fun for Shireroth, I'm sure ...

And what I'm trying to tell you is that the Duke doesn't need to be careful for either of those reasons. I'm not going to move because I've put days and days of work into Ynnraile, and I don't want to lose my status as Barony. I doubt Maksym would ever go away from K'Tzuni either. And I don't know how we could try a coup, and even if we did try one, Duke Erik doesn't seem like the sort of person who's easy to overthrow.

I think there needs to be some option halfway in between "go with the flow" and "abandon everything you've ever worked for in all your time in Shireroth".

[Kaiser Hasan I]

Well ideally the threat should be enough. See, if you disagree with your duke so much that you are willing to move to solve the problem that creates an issue. The Duchy you're moving from looses your erbs. As well, if you made it public your intent to move, any other Duke would clamor at the chance to have you immigrate since you bring your influence with you, so you could probably ask for an equivalent position in your new Duchy. Which means, that the Duchy you're moving from will either have to negotiate with you or risk loosing influence in the Landsraad. Also since this would be a very drastic move, its not likely to happen often, and there is also nothing that says you can't move back when the issue is solved.

[Andreas the Wise]

And Yvain (and as MiniTrade I should be beyond corruption and not telling you this, but anyway) there's the much easier option that, if annoyed with your Dukes vote and talking to him doesn't help ... you transfer all your erbs temporarily to another person on the other voting side. Then get them to transfer back. True, it's slightly underhand, and you have to trust them to transfer it back as you can't really take them to court and bring out the possible illegality of it ... but it shouldn't be too hard to find SOMEONE in Shireroth to trust ...

[Erik Mortis]

hmmm... we need to set a benchmark for when to counts votes. Do we just have the dukes vote normally, then at the end see what influence they have... could not that allow a Prætor to wait on a vote till things change to what he/she wants? Do we go with how votes are when the vote starts?

[Kaiser Hasan I]

When there is an act put forth for a vote, a date is set at which time all trade is closed until the vote is made. When that date is set, erbs are counted to determine number of votes for each Duke and the Dukes vote accordingly. Then trade is resumed.

[Erik Mortis]

And if the Landsraad is really active, trade could be stopped for weeks. That won't work to well.


Theortically votes only last 4 days. So in theory that would be the date to check. I might be able to build a logging system into the bank, but that isn't a priority. And I'm not sure exactly what it would do. But maybe when people check the summary page it gives a confirmation number that the bank admin could verify. Or better yet the system itself could varify. Actually... I see this as highly doable...Just give an MD5 sum to go with the summary, based on the summary, date and username or something or other. It would proly still be crackable..but would be a lot of bother... Then at a later date, enter the summary info and md5 sum and see if they match. Ah. I just need to add sometihng to the sum that a user couldn't know but the system would know for checking purposes.. so without the key people could not generate fake validation codes.

I can do it!
So, set the date for the vote to use. Then on that date bring up a summary and it's validation code, then put these before the landsraad. If someone doubts the validity, there would be a checking program in the bank to check the data/date against the code. still crackable... but safe enough for our needs.

[Andreas the Wise]

Since you have to calculate the duchy things anyway, you'd want an 'add up duchies' command anyway. Just, when voting is called, post the duchy sums there in that post. Then vote with those ...

[Erik Mortis]

ummm.. that's what I just said..yes. And some stuff to help validate the data in case there is dispute.

[Andreas the Wise]

Yeah, but my version was shorter, and saved you having to write up validation code ...

[Erik Mortis]

well.. my previous post was me thinking out.. err.. loud.

[Yvain Wintersong]

And Yvain (and as MiniTrade I should be beyond corruption and not telling you this, but anyway) there's the much easier option that, if annoyed with your Dukes vote and talking to him doesn't help ... you transfer all your erbs temporarily to another person on the other voting side. Then get them to transfer back. True, it's slightly underhand, and you have to trust them to transfer it back as you can't really take them to court and bring out the possible illegality of it ... but it shouldn't be too hard to find SOMEONE in Shireroth to trust ...

Thank you, Andreas. That possibility removes some of my anxiety.

Erik, could you just integrate a "Vote in the Landsraad" function into the bank? Add a screen where you enter a Ducal password and the name of a bill, and then tick off a "yes", "no", or "abstain" button. Then the program calculates how many votes you should have, adds them to a total, and after the right amount of time displays which side won.

[Erik Mortis]

Unlikely.

Well. It could be doable.. but there would be a lot of infrastructure under it not related to a bank... But.. yes. I could in theory automate the Landsraad.

[Jonas]

Thank you, Andreas. That possibility removes some of my anxiety.

Erik, could you just integrate a "Vote in the Landsraad" function into the bank? Add a screen where you enter a Ducal password and the name of a bill, and then tick off a "yes", "no", or "abstain" button. Then the program calculates how many votes you should have, adds them to a total, and after the right amount of time displays which side won.

No! It's 'Aye', 'Nay' and 'abstain'!

[Erik Mortis]

Out of curiosity, there was a pre-made bank system posted in MiniTrade the other day. I haven't heard from anyone if we would rather use it or the one I'm making. I gave some comments in the thread in MiniTrade.

[Jacobus Loki]

Shireroth for the Shirithians!

[Erik Mortis]

comments, requests, bug reports and other like... signs of interest for the bank I'm making would be useful. As it stands I'm getting little to no feed back on how it looks, works..etc.

[Kaiser Hasan I]

I've been rather busy at work and have mostly been posting from there. So because of that I haven't been able to look at it often. I will check it out when I get home today. What does that translate into Californian time? 5pm last Tuesday?

[Erik Mortis]

considering I don't know where you are...

[Kaiser Hasan I]

I come from a different plane of existence ruled by time lords three hours in the future of your time Erik. It is known by many names, but in your primitive pacific language it is pronounced EASTERN STANDARD!

[Andreas the Wise]

Result = Daleks pwn Erik.

[Erik Mortis]

But ... you killed the Cybermen... I am sad...

[Andreas the Wise]

I'm sorry, but Daleks are way cooler than Cyberman. Not to say the Cyberman aren't cool. But Daleks are cool on a whole 'nother level ...

[Erik Mortis]

Wasn't it Darleks?

[Liam conToketi]

Not when you have an Australian accent...

[Andreas the Wise]

It's pronounced Darleks anywhere (or at least should be) but it's ALWAYS been spelt Daleks.

Spangle agrees with me, so it must be right ...