Shireroth

Anyhoo... I was playing with an Idea that I kinda mentioned to Scott which is where the phases idea came from.. But I have an idea that would do the same as Merger.. which in theory pleases me.. but prevents what I fear..Some may Recall the old Benacian Commonwealth. Well, why not bring something like it back. Make an organization (small) and merger certain parts of the nations into it. Diplomacy, Military and Economy. And both nation retain Territorial soveriegnty. Than maybe someday.. the nations truely will become one.. and can do a FULL merger. Not that I want that. The two nations would remain as Kingdoms within this... Empire... Call the leader the.. her.. High-Ri or whatever is wanted right now... I would even be willing to possibly modify the Tri-Cit law to Exzept Treesia..In essence.. we would be 1 nation. with to major sub-divisions, that rule themselves... (blaim the history channel for having something on Empires recently...)hehe.. We could even rename to the Kaiserdom of Shireroth within the.. err.. United Empire of... Coilshire or whatever.. .. that would be amusing.. the UEC.. sorry.. long ago when I made the name UEC it was exactly what I am suggesting right now. United Empire Confederation or something like that.. Made up of Kingdoms and other nations..Hell, Maybe if other nations where REALLY nice.. we could let them in.. Babkha maybe even.. wouldn't that be grand... Uber Super-Power. Not a YAMO... But A kind of... Quasi-Merger. Merger in effect. But let's the nation remain.. well.. what they are..In the end.. MiniTrade, MiniEx, and MoMA would be abolished and would be under the UEC(sorry... I just find it so amusing...I like using it...)One of the things people want with this merger is big diplomatic corps... bigger economy.. Military and Land.. well.. this proly doesn't cover the land issue the way people want.. but it would allow for a massive military, economy and diplomatic corp... Host the Economy in Treesia.. Military here in Shireroth.. and the Diplomatic Corp in a new Board under Treesian EZop with all the other cetral stuff... Mortis BrookshireKaiser of ShirerothEdited by: Kaiser Mors III at: 1/19/04 9:04 am

The only problem witch such a loose confederation, is the establishment of a central government (executive, ministers, legislative) and classify what the relationship between the states and the central government is.Anyone remember the old Raspur Conference?

Ard Ri. Sorry. I'de even be willing to Let Eoin be the Ard Ri. Though we'll proly want a rotating scheme or something for it...Ok.. lemme try to clean it up. I'm gonna use the Mango-shamrock Pact as a base for some parts.1. The 2 nations of Shireroth and Treesia shall united under the United Empire of Coillshire.2. The capital of the United Empire of Coillshire will be named Parasorm and be located on the tip of the currently Treesian peninsula south of Ecosse Nova and just east of the city of Clarendon. (MSP)3. A Board shall be created for the UEC. "The EZOp of the forum will be Sir Iain of Vembria" (MSP)4. The Head of the UEC shall be called the Ard Ri. The first Ard Ri shall be Eoin.5. Both nations shall hand over their foreign affairs, Military and Economy to the UEC.6. Shireroth shall host the Military of the UEC.7. Treesia shall host the Economy of the UEC.8. The Diplomatic Corps shall be hosted on the new Board, along with all other official bussiness of the United Empire.9. Both nations shall retain Territorial soverenty.10. Shireroth shall rename to the Kaiserdom of Shireroth.11. Names are just suggestions at this point.12. Shireroth might make an exception to the Tri-Cit law for Treesia13. Both nations shall show up as the same color on the MCS map under the name of the UEC.14. shireroth would make a "Linked" forum under its General going to Treesia. (The Treesians would proly do something similar).From my view point... this is accually a better compromise than the phases thing... And it even has the possibility to go further IF we want it to later... I make no pretense, I oppose this merger. but I DO like this idea.. which is why I put it forth. It is effectively a merger. Though it may seem a lil beaurocratic.. but.. if the original merger went through.. it would proly be just as bad in the long run.. make a mess of the internal operation of the nations..nation. And I really like what we have in Shireroth.. as I am sure the Treesians like what they have, and I doubt either of us really want to give it up. Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

Well.. This is just a loose... plan. It would need pounding out. Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

Also, if we go with the MSP, we'll have to trash alot of work we've done in the past few months.. notably in the Landsraad. And I've had some ideas I've wanted to put in place.. that would be obsoleted by this merger. Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

And you think we don't have plans, is that it? We just passed a new Constitution, and were preparing to have Council elections soon. We're fully willing to sacrifice a hell of a lot more than ye are. You may be protecting yourselves, or whatever, but this here is a revolutionary idea we're dealing with, the complete merge of two nations into one. There's no room for retaining old institutions and traditions just because you're uncomfortable with losing them. You can opt out of it in two months if you like, no problem. But at least give it a try first. Sun Bless, Earth KeepZirandorthel I of TreesiaThe Golden DarknessNiirus Tinenetuwar, Tivitha e'Taras

I made no pretense to think you weren't giving things up. but I can't speak for you...Since I am not Treesian... Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

LEmme ask you this.. If scott hadn't proposed the MSP.. and you were offered something like the idea I put forth, Would you have gone for it? And if you can't get the MSP.. would you go for the idea I put forth instead? Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

To be honest, Erik, I wouldn't, because there's too much potential for it all collapsing after a week or so because everyone gets tired of it, and is able to just return to their normal sequence of events at the drop of a hat. The full merge has a kind of permanancy attached to it, even if it only lasts for the statutory two months and then breaks apart. So people who would rather not be bothered are dragged along by the inertia of the whole thing, you see? The legislative and military combination isn't as attractive as a full merger, in my opinion. Sun Bless, Earth KeepZirandorthel I of TreesiaThe Golden DarknessNiirus Tinenetuwar, Tivitha e'Taras

And to me.. A full merger isn't attractive at all.. Yes.. The resulting nation would be Much stronger than the nations were on their own.. but it would be something else.. Neither Treesia.. nor Shireroth. Both nations would be lost. And I am not willing to give up Shireroth... Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

So once more, we see a new nation abandoned because one man doesn't want it...

Well the bizzare thing is that he thinks that this is "giving up" Shireroth somehow. But even if the merger fails, Shireroth will be fine. It was fine after Audentior, Jasonia, and Tymaria.People always say that mergers are big risks, but that completely untrue in reality. If the merger does well, then Shireroth and Treesia together become more powerful. If it somehow fails, then Shireroth will just go back to how it was beforehand. Where exactly is the risk?

Success....I can't stop the merger if it is what people want... If the Landsraad can get a 2/3 majority in favor.. I will NOT use my veto. Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

I can't find a reason NOT to at least try it... If it doesn't work at the end of 2 months we split and go back to how it was before, no harm no foul!btw: HARVEEEEEEEEYYY!!!!!!!!!!! DUUUDE!!!!!!!!! HARVEY!!!!!!!!! IT'S......... HARVEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Perhaps he means that this merger might go so badly that the majority of the citizens of Shireroth, who are his real life friends, will somehow become tired of Shireroth and micronations in general and leave. Well, Erik, I can't say I can see that happening. One of the reasons I even agreed to contemplate this merger is because Shireroth and Treesia both have such dedicated citizenries, and Shireroth especially has a knack for attracting particularly enthusiastic wackos who, I think, wouldn't leave even if something went terribly wrong. After all, Shireroth has survived other ruinous mergers. Why not one that has a chance of surviving? And I still want you as Ard Ri. Sun Bless, Earth KeepZirandorthel I of TreesiaThe Golden DarknessNiirus Tinenetuwar, Tivitha e'Taras

I see... Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

MIcronational merger season returns....*begins stocking up provisions for the eventual failure*
Atteran Immigration Authority

Attera and Cranda/Slobovia could make a new evil empire...Let me take this opportunity to say I really hope this merger goes ahead, in some way, shape or form. Good luck!

heh nothing wrong with Atterans these days

Thomas:Quote:Let me take this opportunity to say I really hope this merger goes ahead, in some way, shape or form. Good luck!And let me take this opportunity to say that I am really sorry about what happened regarding your Duke of Marchmain, that I hope he...recovers from whatever his problem is soon...and that the Hano-Pendronia thing goes as well as it seems to be headed towards doing.Erik:Quote:Also, if we go with the MSP, we'll have to trash alot of work we've done in the past few months.. notably in the Landsraad. And I've had some ideas I've wanted to put in place.. that would be obsoleted by this merger.Actually, you'll note that the Pact states that the Landsraad continues to exist, possibly under a different name, with all of the Shirerithian rules for its procedure intact, so that it would not be necessary to trash any of them. As for laws, it would be very easy to do a lawbook-style review of the various Treesian and Shirerithian laws and keep the good ones...shouldn't take any more time than our own law-reviewing experience did. And, would you like to explain exactly what ideas you have that this merger would obsolesce? If they are the same ones you shared with me, then perhaps it would be best if you made public now exactly what they are so we can discuss them and their relevance to all this. Deeds cannot dream what dreams can do. - e. e. cummings

I'll be making a big Anti-Merger speach soonish..."shouldn't take any more time than our own law-reviewing experience did."Scott.. That took forever... and that was with just our laws... In the end I had to just do it myself. and Decree it. It would have taken over a month to do it the originally planned way.. that was me running 10 votes at once... Continuously... People also started losing interest in it. Maybe it was the precedures.. though I tried to stream line those... if we did this with 2 nations laws.. and a bigger Council of Dukes.. it would take the whole 2 months or more depending on when we got to it.. and we would have to make the call to disband back to our soverign states. I also can't recall my points to you on AIM... I would check.. but I can never find anyting in my chat log with you...Than agian.. maybe I remember... But yes.. Big anti-Speach soon... Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

Quote:ott.. That took forever... and that was with just our laws... In the end I had to just do it myself. and Decree it. It would have taken over a month to do it the originally planned way.. that was me running 10 votes at once... Continuously... People also started losing interest in it. Maybe it was the precedures.. though I tried to stream line those... if we did this with 2 nations laws.. and a bigger Council of Dukes.. it would take the whole 2 months or more depending on when we got to it.. and we would have to make the call to disband back to our soverign states.Oh. I kind of stopped paying attention to most of that after the twentieth or so law involving chickens. But I can think of a few ways to streamline it. For one thing, we could adopt wholesale certain portions of the Lawbook, like the Feudal Holding stuff, and the Treesians don't seem to have all that many permanent laws. We could also have a sort of No Contest plan where we put out the laws for a while and if no one objects to them being in the new nation they can be carried over without a vote. We could even send over the Lawbook to the Treesians, have them select the portions to which they have some qualms, and just vote on those, which couldn't be more than a tiny fraction of the whole thing. I'll have to ask Iain about Treesian laws, but I see no reason why they should contradict ours in significant ways, except perhaps in being less poultry-oriented.Quote:I also can't recall my points to you on AIM... I would check.. but I can never find anyting in my chat log with you...Than agian.. maybe I remember... But yes.. Big anti-Speach soon...[edited out as per request] Edited by: Scott Siskind  at: 1/20/04 8:23 pm

I think the easiest solution is that everyone joins Babkha ... uh ... yeah

Quote: except perhaps in being less poultry-oriented.they do have duck worrying...I am a 4th circle one...anyway...what Scott said just then seems reasonable....my ony not to liking this whoile thing for is that shireroth is mega ginormasly big already...... "Disclaimer: Whatever is in the above post is probably a result of my blind following of Kieran Bennett, because I have even less of a brain than Kieran. Don't even get me started on my lack of independent thought."

Reverse the treaty name so it's Shamrock-Mango Pact. Then you can all say you're making an S&M treaty. Or you can just save yourselves the trouble and submit to Babkhan supremacy now. Surrender today and you'll only have to spend ten years in the salt mines compared to death by impalement when we conquer you!

Well.. That point was not really one I care to argue.. that was just a personal reason... I have several personal reasons...Accually.. many... Which is why you'll never get my support for this.. since it is impossible to appease them... and still have what you want.. And I don't really like making that a public conversation.. since people have a habit of misunderstanding me/my action and getting pissed or upset with me. And like I said.. I haven't figured out a way to do what I want (in the long run) without ostrasizing my friends who aren't able to participate as it stands now... Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

How/Why would you conqour your Allies? Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

Because when Treeshire merges with Babakáo I expect we'll face some resistance in creating Bátreeroth. Of course, it'd be easier just to call the whole durn thing The Caliphate and be done with the silly names like Tymaria. I mean, what was I thinking? Trimaria? Tymaria? So, so lame.... *shakes head and wanders off*

I see... Yeah.. I never was TOOO fond of that name either.. Mortis BrookshireKaiser of Shireroth

Quote:1. Stabilization of the feudal system. Right now, only one third of Shirerithian Duchies comply with the Feudal Holdings Act. Under the terms of the Mango-Shamrock Pact, one of the proposed merge plans, three-fifths of them would. 2. Immigration and citizenship. Right now, we are stagnating in an immigration sense. Can you remember the last time we got a new citizen who has been extremely active in national government (no, the Babkhans don’t count, they’re just here to spy on us anyway ) In the meantime, Treesia has an exceptional immigration program that has gotten them numerous new highly active citizens in the past month. With the experience of some of our people, combined with the enthusiasm of some of the new Treesians, we can keep our joint country growing without this growth being unmanageable.3. Foreign affairs. Right now, I am the only person in Shireroth who is engaging in them, and I can’t handle them all by myself. Thus, we have missed out on a number of opportunities to possibly get some new colonies, and are only managing to keep abreast of crises, of which there are far more than normal at this period, by pure luck. Treesia has a number of people well-informed about the world, including Sir Iain de Vembria, who runs the premier micronations portal site, micronations.net, and Sir Jarrett Deane, their highly competent Chancellor of the Exterior. With their help, we could present a better front to the outside world and get our way more often in conflicts of interest.4. Military and intelligence. Despite the extremely hard work of our Minister of Military Affairs, our military does not have the sort of power that we need. Right now we are in a hostile state with Lac Glacei and that the Babkhans are also trying to drag us into a war with Cranda. We do not have the capacity to fight a war on two fronts, and our military, though large in number, is smaller than that of certain foreign nations such as Babkha and Mediterranea. With the addition of the Treesian Reavers, our military would get a much-needed boost. And although SHINE is currently doing better than one might think, we have unfortunate blind spots in the direction of foreign countries that it would be very nice to know more about. While I obviously don’t have access to information as to whether the TIA can correct those problems, it seems believable that such an old and well-respected agency would be what we need to have Total Information Awareness.5. General international influence. Hanover and Pendronia will soon be merging – they were, in fact, the inspiration for this merge. Cranda and Slobovia are always considering merging, and with the Babkhan threat to Cranda, this may happen sooner rather than later. Babkha is growing at an impressive rate, absorbing Lighthouse and also perhaps soon the Vaan Aujoen Isles. If we are to keep up, we need to expand our population and our power in a drastic way, or else perhaps be caught in the position Cranda is currently at should a larger nation decide we have something they want.6. Ambition. For the past eight months, Shireroth has stayed the same size. Sure, we’ve gained some great people like Eriana, the Babkhans, and GMan, but we’ve also lost some great people like Aure, Eros, and Harvey. Shireroth was founded as a country dedicated to the Gods of Chaos, but we have become known primarily for our stagnation and conservativism. What we have now is impressive, but we must remember we did not get that way by sitting on our laurels and doing nothing. With your help, we can get the same sort of meteoric gain in people, territory, and activity that we had during the Tymarian era, when we went from a quiet rural nation with three or four Duchies to an imperialist power with half the world in our grasp and the other half in the grasp of the Yardistani Annexation Corps. It is a choice between a safe complacency and a scary (but fun) chance at skyrocketing Shireroth’s power beyond the stratosphere.1) The nation of Shireroth is entirely stable as it is. The Feudal Holdings Act was created not with the intent of forcing duchies to conform to certain population restrictions, but instead to prevent the creation of extraneous duchies and baronies.2) What keeps us from copying their system without merging into one nation? I'm, just curious. Also, how do we know people aren't joining Treesia because they like Treesia better than us? Or is it just more well known or better advertised?3) We've never been an extremely...how should I put this...we've been, at least since I have been here, more of a solitary nation with a few close allies. As for you scott being the only person working foreign affairs, nothing has ever stopped you from recruiting an assistant.4) As far as the military goes, i have one quote from Mr. Erik Metzler that sums up my feelings: "War is obsolete." As far as intelligence, well...i don't really know much about that sort of that thing (honestly, i don't), but I can understand the advantages here.5) That just sounds to me like the classic, "Everybody else is doing it, why don't we." That's never a legitimate reason to do anything. Shireroth tends to be different and we have historically been successful in our endeavors6) Shireroth was not founded as a nation dedicated to the Gods. In fact, the gods are a recent fabrication. We don't need more terretory on the MCS--that's nothing of import. You tlak about making Shireroth greater, but in reality a merger of this sort would undermine the accomplishments we've already done by esentially disolving the nation into another. We wouldn't be "skyrocketing Shireroth's power," we would be skyrocketing some other yet-to-be nations power.As you may have guessed, I do not support this merger and I urge the powers that be to be careful in their consideration of it. Though the Mango-Shamrock pact makes provisions to undo the merger if it is unsuccessful, it could be too late at that point to save what we have of our original nation. The merger as presented by the MSP is too blending and each separate nation looses it's separate identity. In the merger, we would loose shireroth, it's culture and all it stands for. Do not go through with this. -Gryphon Avocatio- Lord Governor and Duke of all Yardistan - Minister of Research and Education, Shireroth - Shirerothian Elder - SAVE THE KIWI!! - Lover of Llamas Give me your child, and by the age of five, I can make him a priest or a thief or a scholar. - SCOTT: You know, I always joke about how nothing will ever be able to get me out of micronations...but...I think if my mother got into micronations that would get me out in a hurry. - GUILDENSTERN:We cross our bridges when we come to them and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a presumption that once our eyes watered.