Shireroth

Oh you guys. Scott just likes the challenge of defending the undefendable. It's not like means any of the stuff he's saying.

That does allow you to distract from the real issue, which is that CJ agrees with this completely moronic notion, and that you support him. Your defense seems to be that a large part of the world agrees, therefore it must be okay.

Look. Do I think CJ is wrong? Yes (and so far I'm the only person on this thread who's gone so far as to say why). Do I think that his view is an evil one that, when it gains power, causes horrible trauma to lots of people who don't deserve it? Sure.

But I believe this about a lot of things. I think people who disagree with me on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (which I think includes Ardashir) are causing the needless death and misery of hundreds of thousands of civilians. I think people who don't believe in global warming, including such paragons of the Shirerithian community as Jacobus and Hypatia's late mother, are slowly responsible for boiling the earth and will one day cause famines that kill between millions and billions of people. I think that religion, which is believed avidly by wonderful Shirerithians I know and love like Greg, Harvey, and Andreas, is a horrifying force for evil and tyranny and, among other things, is the main reason people oppose homosexuality in the first place.

All of these things are infinitely worse than garden-variety condemnation of homosexuality, which is troublesome but doesn't usually kill millions of people slowly and horribly (the idea that homophobia and racism are literally WORSE than murder has to do with them being more fun to condemn and with a relatively justifiable reaction to Nazism after WWII, but in reality it's nowhere NEAR the most harmful opinion you could hold). But I would never dream of trying to publically shame and insult Ardashir, Greg, Carol, Jacobus, Harvey, or Andreas just because they disagree with me. I think they're great people who are making honest mistakes.

And you're usually the same way. I think if we cornered Andreas and asked him whether homosexuality was evil, he'd probably be very reluctant, he'd probably say it in his impeccably polite Andreas way, he'd clarify that he holds no enmity to actual homosexuals, but that yeah, the Bible says it's evil and he kinda has to agree with the Bible. But you don't go around doing all you can to make Andreas' life miserable.

You're doing this because you enjoy bullying CJ, who's too young and unpopular to be able to fight back. If you bullied Andreas, enough people like Andreas that it might cost you something. But since CJ's socially awkward, you feel totally free to bully him without anyone bothering you about it except me - and you know that if you then switch to harassing me, the usual contingent of trolls like Hesam will support you in that too.

CJ held a distasteful and dangerous opinion, but he was doing nobody any harm with it, the same way lots of other people in Shireroth and around the world hold opinions I consider distasteful and dangerous. We manage to live in communities with these people and even form friendships with them (as I've done with Andreas despite our polar disagreement on almost everything) because we have the good sense not to go around fanning these flames when they don't need to be fanned.

We have three choices: we can either continue living in mutual respect with people we disagree with as long as they're respectful and don't cause harm themselves, we can decide to hate everyone we disagree with and do everything we can to drive them off, in which case everyone in Shireroth will have to hate everyone else and the whole community will explode (not to mention the rest of the world) or we can hypocritically pick on people we don't like and we don't think can fight back while pretending the rest of the issue doesn't exist.

I think the first choice is the only moral option, and I'm disappointed to have a Kaiseress who gets her jollies off of choice three.

All very nice, except that by the end of the conversation, we were trying to get him to explain the logical underpinnings of his assertion, and he not only refused to, he ran away in a fit. His exact response was "You know what, go to hell all of you".

You can't evade that.

Hesam> don't think we've won just yet. Now, he has to bring the argument up another level and demand some sort of structural change to shireroth so that when people argue, it can't be more than one on one. Followed by a 'poor-me' rant about how the three of us ganged up on Scott
<Hesam> followed of course by some sort of pseudo-nostalgic anecdote about the good old days when everyone got along and treated each other well.
<Chrimigules> heh
<Chrimigules> probably
<Malliki> lol
Chrimigules must have been asleep for the good old days

It's also nice that you completely discount my opinion by labelling me a "troll" just so you don't have to defend your points against me.

All very nice, except that by the end of the teasing of CJ, we were trying to get him to explain the logical underpinnings of his assertion, and he not only refused to, he ran away in a fit. His exact response was "You know what, go to hell all of you".

So are we supposed to hate CJ for holding distasteful opinions, or for not being any good at holding distasteful opinions?

Also, if it clarifies things, I'm not really defending CJ so much as I'm attacking the Kaiseress for bringing this whole issue up.

Did I say that?

I will let the people you mention by name defend themselves, since it is not my place to do so, though it is pretty low even for you to drag Lady Carol into this.

I am happy to admit that I love to troll CJ, for various reasons. The thing with me is, or as you would probably call it the problem, that I can't be silent when people make stupid, ignorant and idiotic statements about people I care about. Unlike you, I can't be an enabler. Racism and homophobia have to be opposed every time and every where, regardless of setting or person. To not act is to enable.

As for you calling me a hypocrite, I don't really understand what you mean there. Do you mean that I actually agree with CJ but in secret or that I claim to be morally superior? I really don't, since there is only room for one morally superior person in Shireroth.

Okay, well... I've been watching this argument both in chat and in this thread. I said to myself that I wasn't going to get involved in this. Apparently, I lied. No doubt I will regret it later.

It seems to me that all this is has devolved into personality clashes and is ignoring the important points. Possibly, everyone is just getting a kick out of pissing each other off, or in being an injured party; but I never found that particularly fun.

From a practical standpoint:

1. Is CJMiller's stance on homosexuality wrong? I would say it is wrong, and I think most Shirerithians would as well.

2. Did we really need to bring it up again? I assume Her Niftiness felt that people were not aware of it. I'm less certain of that; the issue's come up before. Even I noticed, and my attention span's not all that big. But, okay, maybe.

3. Did the teasing/insulting have to be involved? I admit to not having seen the point. Were they trying to use the technique to get him to see a different point of view? Sometimes, a light teasing will help with that, but whether you call it teasing or insulting, what happened could not really be called "light". It has to be done carefully and skilfully on the one hand, and be received cautiously and with an open mind on the other, to be successful; otherwise it is perceived as abuse, and the result is morely likely to be that the recipient digs into their position than anything else. If the point was to change CJMiller's mind, then frankly, folks, you suck. If you were doing it for evil fun, you still suck, albeit for different reasons.

4. Should we bother TRYING to change his mind? I would LIKE to say yes, but I suspect that it would not do much good. People change their minds; others do not change it for them, unless they permit it. There are some issues so strong for some people that rational persuasion won't mean much, and neither will humor, whether benign or malicious. If CJMiller is not willing to discuss the issue, then that, I think, is that; any change would have to come from his end.

5. Should we do anything about it?I would venture that this issue is coming up enough that it is making life here unpleasant in general. Occasional arguments are all well and good, but repeated clashes over the same thing should not be allowed to build up. So:

6. What DO we do about it? Thankfully, the actions to be followed here are not mine to decide on. For those who will decide, I present you with this handy flowchart. Think carefully about the consequences involved in each step, because they will all say something about what sort of nation this is.

Should freedom of opinion (even if not formally guaranteed) take priority here? If yes, Deal With It. If no, go onward.

Should freedom of speech (even if not formally guaranteed) take priority here? If yes, Deal With It. If no, go onward.

Even if CJMiller's stance on homosexuality is found to be particularly horrible, would we be willing to let it go so long as he doesn't bring it up and everyone else refrains from provoking him into discussing it? If yes, Deal With It. If no, go onward.

If his opinion is unforgivable whether or not he airs it, is it worthwhile to try to change it?
-If yes, do so in a thoughtful and non-abusive manner. Use reason, or humor, but if you back him into a corner it will not work.
--Did it work? If yes, you may now Deal With It safely. If no, go onward.
-If no, go onward.

If it is felt that CJMiller's stance on homosexuality is inappropriate for Shireroth and he will not change it, what then should be done?
-If formal action seems excessive, then ignore him (i.e., Deal With It).
-If formal action seems necessary, go onward.

If he cannot be ignored, what then?
-Ask him to leave of his own accord. If he will not, see other option.
-Kick him out.

So: either we Deal With It, or we manage to change his mind, or he leaves; everything else is fluff. Personally, I believe that homophobia, however nasty it is, is sufficiently unlikely to spread here that one person known to have it is not going to have a practical effect on the nation other than to cause arguments; and with this in mind, and in the interests of staying out of further arguments, I will now return to Dealing With It.

Half the folk in the house I live in are gay. 2/5th are single. 4/5ths are male. Nothing unnatural or evil going on here. Hell, if any of us are/were Christians, we'd be better Christians then most I know.

Except the Cat... she'd a terrible person.

it's interesting that sexual preference and Christianity are somehow mutually exclusive, and yet judging people for their choices is one of the most basic tenets of that particular philosophy/faith.

I think that religion, which is believed avidly by wonderful Shirerithians I know and love like Greg, Harvey, and Andreas, is a horrifying force for evil and tyranny and, among other things, is the main reason people oppose homosexuality in the first place.

My view on religion is that I have to be as nice as possible, not to get into heaven (I'm good on that front already) but because that's how Jesus was and I want to be more like him. So there's no persecution from me on homosexuality, no persecution because people believe different religions or no religions at all. Obviously I'm not nice to everyone all the time, but hey, it's a goal.

So I believe that your views as religion being an evil monolithic oppressive organization is you making an honest mistake. Or maybe a slightly dishonest mistake since you seem pretty well-learned about things like this in general and still think it's all evil. But we can talk about that later if you want.

I do admit to being slightly homophobic. I don't think it's evil or anything. It just weirds me out a little, in sort of the same sense that if someone told me that they were in love with a cow that would weird me out a little too. Can't really relate to liking other guys sexually.

On a related note, everyone except me loses the right to bitch about anything CJ says or does. I knew the guy was bad news. You all dropped your guard in the name of "second chances." So yeah I'm against the Kaiseress bringing this up, but for almost the exact opposite of reasons that Scott is - because I think the Kaiseress should man up and not complain about CJ after supporting him.

This is the Kaiser of Holzborg, Justin I dont feel like making another account can someone change this one WilhelmI or something?

Honestly if you people actually think being gay if wrong and gay people are going to hell, wait you can think being gay is wrong...IF you think being gay is evil that honestly hurts my feelings... In my honest opinion anyone who can sit there and judge someone without understanding what they go though is evil (Yeah I'm judging you there but I'm gay I have been gay since I can remember, yeah I preferred Prince Erik over Ariel in the 'Little Mermaid' wanna fight about it?)

I have to deal with people who say being gay is evil, a sin, immoral, wrong, you name it, It truly does bother me and I'm surprised that in this hobby which I hate to break it to you CJ they may not announce it like me there are a lot of gay and bisexual people and I'm sure if we had more women we would have lesbians but I'm sure you think that is cool right?

seriously get off the religious aspect of it, we live in 2010...grow up.. I'm a Christian (Lutheran) and my church loves me, maybe they are not the one true church?

I agree with freedom of speech but seriously, if your going to hurt people keep to yourself alright? and some of you are saying stop bullying CJ for saying this, NO dont stop because unless your a homosexual you dont understand what these kind of statements do, you are just ignoring a problem and is a problem that should not be promoted in Micronations or in real life.

If this made any sense...

Harvey Steffke wrote:because I think the Kaiseress should man up and not complain about CJ after supporting him.

Yeah, my bad.

If this made any sense...

Well, it was a load of emotionally incontinent drivel driven by identity politics, indignation and a wounded sense of self, but I sure as well wouldn't dream of holding it against you since this is clearly the thread for it.

(Yeah I'm judging you there but I'm gay I have been gay since I can remember, yeah I preferred Prince Erik over Ariel in the 'Little Mermaid' wanna fight about it?)

Yes, your taste in cartoon characters is appalling.

Anyway. Carry on moralising chaps - you'll truly make the world a better place.

I am remind

edit: p.s. 69 posts

It never ceases to amaze me that discussions of sexual whatevers get started in MNs. Why should anyone give a crap about who does what with who when all the discussions are complete pixilizations anyway, and nobody touches anybody?

I've known a number of "gay" on-line characters that claim such merely for political reasons, and vice versa.

Why give a crap about what somebody feels is "unnatural and evil"? We have had a multitude of cross-dressing characters, animal characters, robot/cyborg characters, and a whole raft of self-proclaimed "evil ".

The only thing that matters is that somebody enjoys being a lighting rod, and others get their jollies out of throwing lighting at him.

Give me a break.

All very interesting. Nonetheless I'd hotly debate Scott's point that CJ's stance on homosexuality hasn't caused a great deal of suffering and misery for people. What about potential? The fact that we live in a democracy doesn't mean we can shirk away from the fact that views we dislike can, should they increase in popularity, become law and thereby define the society in which we live. Then we really do have only ourselves to blame for not at least trying to stop the indirect introduction of these views into modern-day political culture.

I don't have a problem with CJ having a right to air those views. I'd say people have a duty to try and debate with him about it, as it is a potentially harmful world view, but there's a difference between defending CJ's right to air those views and CJ's right to not be questioned for holding them.
Scott, you're a good guy but sometimes I get the feeling you support the underdog for no reason that, well, they're the underdog. Yeah, perhaps CJ is younger than some of us and should be cut some slack but there's a certain line at which, in my opinion, we are morally obliged to take people to task on views they hold, regardless of their age, gender, ethnicity, religion etc.

It's all a pretty big question- practically merits its own forum seeing the amount of discussion which can come from it.
And Shireroth generally seems to play host to more interesting political discussions than Ashkenatza, where most of us seem to agree about politics anyway!