Shireroth

Ok, you got me with Antica, but surely you aren't expousing a democratic rule here in Shireroth...

In the past I have clashed with people, but had the decency to take a deep breath and reconsider. Most recently: the flag decree: I repealed the decree before it became active. In the meantime we got a compromise like using the old flag as Imperial banner, which still isn't enough for some.

And I disagree with you, Greg: I'm not belonging to the 'older folks' but it's incorrect to say that I want to change everything. I'm even criticised because of my lack of a clear policy, that's because I don't feel attracted by too many changes and am happy about how everything in Shireroth is governed. Personally, I don't feel that it's the Kaiser's role to interfere in Ducal politics if that isn't necessary.

Yet I don't see a mass exodus from democratic micronations all the time.

Wrong, I have seen it before and it will happen again. Mostly in the Dutch sector, but I wouldn't be surprised if it happened here too. Or, like Greg said, they die quietly.

You know that isn't exactly correct either. Antica has been around for a while, I don't see people quitting in a huff there all the time, because people have learned that the majority rules. The same with several other pretty old micronations.

So? We aren't a democracy, we aren't the same as foolish republics. We are SHIREROTH. Our system isn't perfect, but at least it works decently and it has survived several years while republics and democracies collapsed. Why? Because our Kaisers didn't always do what the majority wanted. Otherwise we would now have been another democracy without anything originally.

Batavia is a democracy, most nations I was citizen in were democracies. But it didn't stop me to come here and quit those other nations. Democracy (with or without elections) are boring.

Wow, cheers kaiser Leto.

Gman Russell wrote:It's not really fair to either side, now is it? So what's the best solution? Someone has to go. Harvey realized this, and chose the easier path. Even if he returns, he will still clash with people like Allot, which creates the same problem. There is no solution.

Just one clarification to this: You do realise that the flag reform has been largely driven by Scott, with Bill and me as the most vocal supporters? Because, you know, while Bill did leave for a good while, Scott and I have never given up on Shireroth just because we disagree with the other citizens, and I wouldn't exactly call us new. I wouldn't dispute that Shirithians can be placed on a rather single-dimensional "conservative" or "progressive" continuum in general, such that the conservative-biased ones tend to be conservative about everything, and the progressive-biased ones want to be progressive about seemingly everything. It's just that this demarcation has little to do with how new you are to Shireroth... well, except maybe that the older citizens seem to all be found at the continuum's edges, whereas newer people can be all over the place.

@Ari: Totally agree with you. At the time I posted that we were just talking about you and how it was weird that we'd never seen you throw a bitch-fit. Personally I think that's a bit telling, that just because we know you've been here for a while we were expecting you to act like Erik.

But seriously, if you want to keep things the same right now, you're looked upon as being repressive and part of the OBC, when in reality you just like how things are. I like the old flag, not because I hate change, but because i'm comfy with it. Leaving seems to be the only thing that solves anything, because as long as one of us is around, one of us will be upset. The older folks will be mad because their being sneered at by younger citizens who want to change everything they like, and younger citizens will be mad (here's looking at you, Allot) because there are people who like the way things are right now and would argue against whatever it is their proposing.

I disagree. I never objected to Erik leaving over the flag issue because a) I'm used to Erik but also b) I understand that the flag is a major issue and I respect and understand those who want to keep it the same. On issues like that, I don't think it's weird at all for people to object, even if it's just "tradition for tradition's sake". I'm still unsure as to what logic derived the conclusion that "leaving/threatening to leave is the only solution." I'm still confused about what people think that accomplishes. And the point of politics is that there is disagreement! Even in a monarchy there is disagreement, and you (generalized) shouldn't get pissed off if someone disagrees with your idea. I have to object to the statement that us "young'ins" get bitchy every time one of our ideas gets stricken down.

AND YET. There are two types of disagreement. The first is usually seen from people like Scott and (often) Harvey and others, who clarify why they don't like your idea and then (sometimes) offer constructive criticism. That is how it should be done. The second type, which is far more frequent, consists of "what the fuck", "lame", and "gtfo". I notice that Malliki's last three posts in Elwynn have all consisted of the same word: "LAME." While that may be your feeling, why do you feel a need to communicate that to the person? Do you think you're helping them?

So to be honest, this isn't really about Shirithian social dynamics. It sparked 1) because this decree is clearly irrelevant to EVERYONE'S lives except in a strictly RP sense, so why people are complaining I don't know and 2) because I started to realize how incredibly hostile the Shirithian environment is. As well, clearly people need a different way to express their disagreement because the two methods being utilized right now (leaving and rudeness) aren't working for anyone.

Did I make you cry?

I'm still unsure as to what logic derived the conclusion that "leaving/threatening to leave is the only solution."

If two people argue a point, and they both won't change their minds, then one must leave for peace to come, understand?

Or both could just stfu, understand?

They could shut up, yes, but then no change would happen either way and they would still have their own opinions.

Great! You know, it is okay to have a difference of opinion.

I agree, but eventually politics will bring up whatever disagreement they have between the two, and will always cause a bit of strife between them.

Then you deal with it. Srsly, not rocket science.

Can't people just agree to disagree? I mean, I don't like the titles "Baron" and "Count" for complicated reasons, but I know I'm outnumbered and most people like them, so I've given up and don't harp on about it all the time. I don't see why people can't express their opinion, get it decided through official government channels, and then the losers lose graciously.

Because on the internet, opinions are fact

Malliki Tosha wrote:Did I make you cry?

I doubt that, but... I do recall you second-guessing yourself about whether to even post various works of Lakhesian culture, since you weren't sure at all whether they were cool or not. Isn't it nice that you don't live in a nation where some bored guy might come along and respond with "LAME." if they didn't find your work worthy?

I have to object to the statement that us "young'ins" get bitchy every time one of our ideas gets stricken down.

It's more that the "old'ins" are the ones doing all the bitching.

Sadly, Ari is the only one who seems to ever grasp the whole of the situation and be able to look at things objectively.

I would like to point out that the idea that the nobility has the right to rebel against the King actually existed in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

As you've got the article there you'll note what eventually happened to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth on account of that right...

Chicken War... devotees of B'Caw take note.

Aurangzeb Khan wrote:As you've got the article there you'll note what eventually happened to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth on account of that right...

Nah, it was the Liberum Veto that killed 'em.