A call for debate

[RicLyon]

Join the GC?

[Shyriath]

Well, I'm slowly starting to get up my enthusiasm again. And I'm thinking that we need to get the Landsraad rolling again.Let's try and gather up some issues for debate. For one, how are we all feeling about the GC now? Do we hate them, like them, feel utterly ambivalent? Should we come to an arrangement with them? As far as I know, they haven't done anything particularly evil recently, although it's hard to tell; I lost the URL for their forums a while back. This, of course, need not stop us from disliking them, but it's something to take into consideration.And what about SPEAR? Should we still consider joining it? Indeed, is it even around anymore, or doing anything productive?

[Hypatia Agnesi]

I heartily agree we should get the Landsraad up again, but...I am still maintaining my semi-LOA. I'm here, and I'm keeping up with most stuff, but I don't want to deal with any of my responsibilities until August starts, after I've moved to UCSB and all of the stresses I'm dealing with at the moment have either cleared up or at least changed form and intensity.If you want the Landsraad functioning, I suggest you find a temporary Praetor if it comes to the point of legislation. Debate-wise, though...go at it. I'll try to keep up but probably won't contribute. *throws grenade for the hell of it*BO0O0O0O0/\/\!!!!!!

[Gryphon the Pure]

There's a link to the Great Satan at the bottom of the page.In my opinion, right now we need as many allies as possible. It's no mystery that we're vulnerable since the EzHack. Gryphon the Pure- Shirithian Elder - Dutch of Kildare - Minister of the Interior - High Priest of Apostrophe aka Grammar Fuhrer - Director of the Shirithian Census - Imperial Advisor -q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);

[Fax Celestis]

I have no comment on the GC or on other foreign relations because I'm isolationist.Or does that make me have a comment? And who would have thought that my fate, it would conjure this twist in the road on which I have wandered?Each vision and dream now completely dismembered, to give one's whole life and find nothing's remembered...And what good is a life that leaves nothing behind? Not a thought or a dream that might echo in time

[osmose1000]

What benefits could we reap from allying with them for the sole purpose of "it would help us from being weak"? How are we weak? They call it a signature, but no one ever signs their posts...

[Kaiser Alejian I]

I don't want an alliance with anyone personally, but I will yield to the Landsraad if a majority is achieved.

[Gryphon Avocatio]

I believe we need to take a look at ministerial powers. Anybody remember when Joseph "legally" got rid of all of our forums a couple of months back? The fact of the matter is that the ministers hold a ton of power in this nation. I think we need to find a way to regulate the ministries without interfering with their day-to-day activities the way Locke and Rakesh wanted to a year ago. The MiniInt ought to be able tor regulate the forums without permission, but he shouldn't be able to do all but shut them down. The MiniImNat should be able to decide what citizens enter the nation, but obviously needs to be regulated in case a discression arises. 3e knowe ek that in fourme of speche is chaunge / With-inne a thousand 3eer, and wordes tho / That hadden pris now wonder nyce and straunge / Us thenketh hem, and 3et thei spake hem so, / And spedde as wel in loue as men now do...

[Shyriath]

That is a good idea. The problem is finding the right way to implement it, since, as you said, we don't want to interfere in their day-to-day stuff.We would have to be careful, when thinking of such legislation, to avoid certain extremes of being too general or too specific. On the one hand, simply saying in law that "a Minister can't overstep the bounds of office" isn't going to do squat, since the bounds are nebulous enough to make defining a breach of the law pretty tricky. On the other, defining every single thing a Minister CAN'T do in law is probably going to be impractical, and will clutter up the Lawbook no end.So what we might want to start out with on that score is finding a few very important prohibitions on each Ministry and getting them into law first, both to protect against those specific offenses and to give an idea by example of what constitutes "you-can't-go-there" behavior.So, unilateral massive reorganization of forums by MiniInt is one proposal for prohibition. Any others?

[Shyriath]

Minor point: SSHIT should probably be added underneath MoRS in this scheme.

[Gryphon the Pure]

I have tried for so long to get the MoRE into a more reasonable department. Good luck on changing it this time. Gryphon the Pure- Shirithian Elder - Dutch of Kildare - Minister of the Interior - High Priest of Apostrophe aka Grammar Fuhrer - Director of the Shirithian Census - Imperial Advisor -q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);

[Fax Celestis]

How about this?Quote:Ministerial Reorganizing1. Ministry Of The Exterior (MiniEx)Responsibilities:1. Conduct foreign relations2. Run SHINE3. Negotiate treaties (with Landsraad/Kaiserial approval)Subordinate Groups:SHINEMiniEx Archives2. Ministry Of Immigration And Naturalization (MiniImNat)Responsibilities:1. Add citizens2. Remove inactive citizens3. Run bimestrual census4. Maintain list of citizens and residencySubordinate Groups:Census Bureau3. Ministry Of Information (MiniInfo)Responsibilities:1. Add, remove, and change website data as needed.4. Ministry Of The InteriorResponsibilities:1. Create new fora2. Destroy old fora (with Kaiserial approval)3. Archive old fora (with Kaiserial approval)4. Archive threads (except within the Landsraad)5. Sticky, close, and move threads (except within the Landsraad)6. Mantenance of forum graphics (change with permission)7. Add, change, and remove titles (with user's permission)Subgroups:All archives5. Ministry Of Research And Simulation (MoRS)Responsibilities:1. Run military and SNARL2. Run university and JASO3. Start and run economy4. Keep tabs on foreign activity5. Maintain religious sector6. Build and maintain fictional historySubgroups:The Great MarketplaceTony Au Memorial LibraryJohn Metzler III UniversitySNARLJASOShireroth Standardized History Initiative TeamMilitary and research archives6. PraetorResponsibilities:1. Archive, sticky, and close topics in the Landsraad2. Summon ministers3. Break tiesSubgroups:LandsraadLandsraad Passed BillsLandsraad Failed BillsLandsraad ArchivesMain Points:=Abolishes the MoMA, the MoRE, and the MiniTrade and forms it into one unit, the MoRS (Ministry of Research and Simulation).=Moves some powers from one ministry to another (most notably, the census).=Clarifies powers of all ministries.Please, edit me. I'd like to have it in working order before putting it before the Landsraad. And who would have thought that my fate, it would conjure this twist in the road on which I have wandered?Each vision and dream now completely dismembered, to give one's whole life and find nothing's remembered...And what good is a life that leaves nothing behind? Not a thought or a dream that might echo in timeEdited by: Fax Celestis  at: 7/13/05 23:23

[Hypatia Agnesi]

I would say that I have by far the best definied job among those listed. I don't think we need to redefine it along with the others, since my powers are pretty well laid out, with what I can and cannot do. There are a couple of things I was considering asking to be changed, but they had to do with my powers on punative action (like banning someone from the Landsraad) and were going to be resolved before the EzBoard attack. *throws grenade for the hell of it*BO0O0O0O0/\/\!!!!!!

[Fax Celestis]

The only reason I included the Praetor position in this list was because I felt the need to clarify why the MiniInt was being denied those same powers in and around the Landsraad. I don't think anything was changed in the way of Praetorial powers, and if it was I didn't mean to. And who would have thought that my fate, it would conjure this twist in the road on which I have wandered?Each vision and dream now completely dismembered, to give one's whole life and find nothing's remembered...And what good is a life that leaves nothing behind? Not a thought or a dream that might echo in time

[Gryphon Avocatio]

The University and the Military should not be under the same Ministry. I don't see much of a logical connection:The University is a knowledge base for the public of Shireroth and anywhere else. It is theoretically organized by the MoRE, and basically made possible with contributions from the public. The MoRE is also in charge of the Library, which should be a more formal grouping of important works.The Military should be charged with protecting the information on our forums from foreign attacks. It should work in conjunction witht he Ministry of the Exterior and SHINE to head off possible problems, and it ought to be headed by the MoMA, somebody capable of organizing resistance to attacks and preparing people in case of a disaster. RecWars should only be a side program of the Ministry. RecWars may generate activity, but it's not what I consider productive activity, activity which helps to complete government objectives.Of course, I think that micronational trade is a joke.This isn't the place for this discussion, really. But those are my thoughts. 3e knowe ek that in fourme of speche is chaunge / With-inne a thousand 3eer, and wordes tho / That hadden pris now wonder nyce and straunge / Us thenketh hem, and 3et thei spake hem so, / And spedde as wel in loue as men now do...

[hypatias mom]

I find myself holding a position for which I have no training, no forms, and no experience. I realize this is not a direct response to the very well-described and defined list above, but I could use help, forms, and any other assistance that might be available. I am filling Eriana's place until she returns to her ministry, but without sufficient tools to do the job.

[Kaiser Alejian I]

Unfortuanately their was alot more organization to the ministries before the attack. We need to get the lawbook back in order and we need to work on the fact we use oral or unstated traditions and laws way too much.

[hypatias mom]

Thanks.

[Al Fido ha Tatak Kalb]

SHINE should not be under MiniEx. At least it isn't right now. It's more of an independent organization. I can see it being merged back, but we ought to have a discussion about that.Military and research shouldn't be combined. One Ministry should do one thing. If people want to get rid of research or trade, that's one thing, but merging them into a sort of formless chimera ministry is only going to ensure that they continue to be ignored. As I've said many times before, I support rehabilitating research and trade into important parts of the nation. I've given my idea for trade, and I will give my idea for research when I return.Immigration should totally have the responsibility of recruiting new people and helping them fit in. PRH, that should be its primary responsibility.

[Fax Celestis]

The reason I thought MoRS would be a good ministry was because of two things: (1) the acronym is teh awesome; and (2) because all three of those groups really don't have practical nation-running applications. If we lump them all into one Ministry, with three interior Departments, it'll be easier to manage.And don't go telling me that "A *is necessary!!". Delvenus went all of it's life without a military, and most countries never HAVE a university. Trade has never been successful because we don't care enough. Admit it: there have been things tried that should work, but no one is willing to go out of their way to make it work.Hence the reason for putting them all together. And who would have thought that my fate, it would conjure this twist in the road on which I have wandered?Each vision and dream now completely dismembered, to give one's whole life and find nothing's remembered...And what good is a life that leaves nothing behind? Not a thought or a dream that might echo in time

[Gryphon Avocatio]

I agree with Scott. If we put everything into one big ministry, then it makes it easy to ignore certain aspects of the ministry. Say a minister likes the military, but doesn't really care for trade and likes the university, but doesn't think it should be the primary concern of the ministry. Trade looses, the university will suffer. This could be fixed by trying to appoint somebody equally interested in all aspects of the ministry, but this would make it a difficult position to fill.You've also dumped "keeping tabs on foreign affairs" and "maintaining the religious sector" on the MoRS as well. The former is the job of the MiniEx, and the latter doesn't fit at all with the others.James, you argue that all of these ministries are unnecessary, and so they should be lumped together. You say they don't have "practical nation-running capabilities." Look at practicallity from this direction: this ministry would be the most difficult to run. It has almost as many jobs as MiniInt, but at least MiniInt has very specific jobs in one area of the nation. That gives one minister a lot of stuff to do, which is impractical on a different level. Making the unnecessary ministries into one big one that is even more difficult to run doesn't seem like a good idea because then none of those things will get done.As for impracticallity of each ministry, I have a couple arguments:The Military *should* be a practical institution. The military ought to be able to do something about an attack. They ought to prepare for attacks and have a plan in case anything happens (lock down forums, &c.). They ought to back up important information as a national defence strategy. What we have is a society for recwars, and that is impractical.Trade does not fail because people don't care. Our gifting economy from a while back showed pretty plainly that people appreciated the economy to some degree. It was used pretty extensively. I believe trade fails because our "economies" are not really economies. Currency is only worth what you can get for it. Generally, the most basic things you can get are resources and services. Shireroth has no resources. Virtual resources are worthless. I'm not going to trade you an imaginary bushel of wheat for money that is supposed to have value. People in Shireroth can offer services, but most of the services that can be offered in Shireroth are so simple that either no money is required or the person who would pay for it could more easily do it themselves. Outside of Shireroth, services require macronational money. So, it's difficult to get our currency to be worth anything because we can't have a real economy and everything falls apart. Because of this, people don't care. Failure is inevitable. 3e knowe ek that in fourme of speche is chaunge / With-inne a thousand 3eer, and wordes tho / That hadden pris now wonder nyce and straunge / Us thenketh hem, and 3et thei spake hem so, / And spedde as wel in loue as men now do...

[Fax Celestis]

Nihilist.Okay, so let's scrap the MoRS idea and keep the three ministries...but what are their powers? And who would have thought that my fate, it would conjure this twist in the road on which I have wandered?Each vision and dream now completely dismembered, to give one's whole life and find nothing's remembered...And what good is a life that leaves nothing behind? Not a thought or a dream that might echo in time

[Kaiser Alejian I]

1) MoMA: As Nick said, I suppose. *shrugs* But it's easier said than done.2) MoRE: what it did before. I enjoyed reading those classes...3) MoT: No idea. None, at all.

[Fax Celestis]

I think the MiniTrade is a lost cause.Agreed, the military should do something, and it did originally, but with the decline of physical international violence it has turned mostly into a place to RP.And the MoRE is fun when it goes. I might start up my poetry class again now that Locke is gone. And who would have thought that my fate, it would conjure this twist in the road on which I have wandered?Each vision and dream now completely dismembered, to give one's whole life and find nothing's remembered...And what good is a life that leaves nothing behind? Not a thought or a dream that might echo in time

[Kaiser Alejian I]

thats the problem with the MoMA, that there is very little war around here now-a-days. Curse our mature attitudes! hehe.

[Al Fido ha Tatak Kalb]

Here is what I will be doing for MiniTrade when I get back:1. Trying to implement my economic plan that you all heard before.2. Trying to print out real Shireroth currency. You have mostly seen the Hyperborean money I have. Having Shireroth money of that sort would be cool whether or not we had a real economy.3. Continuing to sell stuff via our cafepress store.I think we should push SNARL more, and when that works it'll provide our military with something to do. Real threats tend not to be around anymore, and when they do happen there's not much we can do about them.

[RicLyon]

I remember that Hyperborean money. Still in my wallet Richard LyonYansha Elaer Kyon gef ShanPernem kahn gef kuymal per varga stiPernem kahn gef varga per kuymal sti

[Gryphon the Pure]

The military does back up the fora. Unfortunately, I don't think our backups get the password-hidden fora, and they definitely are not easily reintegrated into EzBoard, because it's just not good at that end-user-backups thing yet.When EzBoard's new version comes out and EzOps can automatically backup to hard-drive, it won't even be a Military issue. Gryphon the Pure- Shirithian Elder - Dutch of Kildare - Minister of the Interior - High Priest of Apostrophe aka Grammar Fuhrer - Director of the Shirithian Census - Imperial Advisor -q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);q=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);

[Gryphon Avocatio]

1) Scott, I was actually thinkign of designing some Shirerothian currency...I had some ideas...2) EzOp backups: I know erik will take care of that. 3e knowe ek that in fourme of speche is chaunge / With-inne a thousand 3eer, and wordes tho / That hadden pris now wonder nyce and straunge / Us thenketh hem, and 3et thei spake hem so, / And spedde as wel in loue as men now do...

[Kaiser Alejian I]

Work together! BEHOLD: Together Everyone Achieves More!*holds pep rally*