The future of the Government
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The future of the Government
Right. New plan. Houses failed due to angst. Now what?
Do we return to Duchies?
Do we rebuild the Charter?
Do we disband the Landsraad and Kaisership?
Do we end feudalism?
Ideas?
Do we return to Duchies?
Do we rebuild the Charter?
Do we disband the Landsraad and Kaisership?
Do we end feudalism?
Ideas?
Re: The future of the Government
>do we return to duchies
Somewhat. Call them Provinces and give each a Governor-General appointed by the Folkedag.
>do we rebuild the charter
Yes.
>do we disband the landsraad and kaisership
No. However, we rename the Landsraad the Folkedag, give every citizen a vote therein, and make the Kaiser an elected monarch.
>do we end feudalism
Not sure.
Somewhat. Call them Provinces and give each a Governor-General appointed by the Folkedag.
>do we rebuild the charter
Yes.
>do we disband the landsraad and kaisership
No. However, we rename the Landsraad the Folkedag, give every citizen a vote therein, and make the Kaiser an elected monarch.
>do we end feudalism
Not sure.
Re: The future of the Government
I want to propose the return to a simple system that doesn't require too much people around. That way we avoid that the nation will suffer during the next few weeks / months (I don't expect everyone returning immediately and it wouldn't surprise me that some will take a long LOA).Erik Mortis wrote:Right. New plan. Houses failed due to angst. Now what?
Do we return to Duchies?
Do we rebuild the Charter?
Do we disband the Landsraad and Kaisership?
Do we end feudalism?
Ideas?
So, let us just return to the system of the past: Duchies with a Duke that represent the people. It will be the duty of the Duke to represent his people.
We could rebuild the Charter, but I don't know what we should change. I'm not from the opinion that we should disband the Kaiserhip, nor the Landsraad. But that's just me.
If people want a symbolic break with the past, we could rename the Empire to... errr... Feudal Federation of Shireroth... Confederacy of Shireroth... Zollverein of Shireroth... errr...
If we are going to elect the Kaiser (I see no reason why, to be honest), then we should call him a president. Because that's where you're aiming for.>do we return to duchies
Somewhat. Call them Provinces and give each a Governor-General appointed by the Folkedag.
>do we rebuild the charter
Yes.
>do we disband the landsraad and kaisership
No. However, we rename the Landsraad the Folkedag, give every citizen a vote therein, and make the Kaiser an elected monarch.
>do we end feudalism
Not sure.
And having our subdivisions called provinces doesn't do anything. Except making us less original.
So... the Folkedag would appoint governors? Why? I don't remember that we have had problems with appointments of the local leaders. In the contrary, I would be more worried if I knew that our Duke wouldn't appoint his successor himself. Till now the Kaiser only interfered when there wasn't a replacement appointed. I don't consider that the problem.
From a distance I'm concerned about the rampant lawyerism manifesting itself in Shireroth currently. A simple Kaiserial slap on the wrist or censure by the community should suffice. - Jacobus Loki
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- Falkner van der Sluijs
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Re: The future of the Government
No, bad, this is not turning us into a democracyCJ Miller wrote:>do we return to duchies
Somewhat. Call them Provinces and give each a Governor-General appointed by the Folkedag.
>do we rebuild the charter
Yes.
>do we disband the landsraad and kaisership
No. However, we rename the Landsraad the Folkedag, give every citizen a vote therein, and make the Kaiser an elected monarch.
>do we end feudalism
Not sure.
Dutch of Kildare
Jarl in Asantelian
Steward of Shireroth
Swnndyrrr Ytteirsal
Perennial Ghoti
Jarl in Asantelian
Steward of Shireroth
Swnndyrrr Ytteirsal
Perennial Ghoti
Re: The future of the Government
Since when is giving every citizen legislative power not a democracy?
Re: The future of the Government
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elective_monarchyJonas wrote:If we are going to elect the Kaiser (I see no reason why, to be honest), then we should call him a president. Because that's where you're aiming for.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President
Re: The future of the Government
I know of the existence of an elective monarchy, CJ. But what you're trying to do is creating a democracy with an elected president (you can call it whatever you want, but I'm not going to call it Kaiser).CJ Miller wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elective_monarchyJonas wrote:If we are going to elect the Kaiser (I see no reason why, to be honest), then we should call him a president. Because that's where you're aiming for.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President
Yeah, there was the Holy Roman Empire, the (early) Kingdom of France,... that were elective monarchies. But then you had to be a (pretty high) noble. And I'm pretty sure that's not what you're aiming for (the more because the 'dukes', the high nobles, would been have been elected by a Folkedag, which would mean that we would elect a simple councillor).
Result: we would be a republic with just some different names.
From a distance I'm concerned about the rampant lawyerism manifesting itself in Shireroth currently. A simple Kaiserial slap on the wrist or censure by the community should suffice. - Jacobus Loki
Can't you see? I'm crazy!
Can't you see? I'm crazy!
Re: The future of the Government
I never said "elected by the Folkedag". I was actually thinking that the Kaiser would be elected from amongst either the Governors-General or the IAC.
Re: The future of the Government
So: the governors were elected by the Folkedag and they elect a Kaiser. So, indirectly elected by the Folkedag. And as the IAC is an advisory council, I wouldn't give them the privilege to elect a Kaiser.CJ Miller wrote:I never said "elected by the Folkedag". I was actually thinking that the Kaiser would be elected from amongst either the Governors-General or the IAC.
Besides: that wouldn't make it more of an elected monarchy: you need nobles for that. And a governor isn't a noble but (in this case) an elected representative (once more: it worries me that the governors would be elected by the country's council).
Errrm, good. Enough of this. We can better use our energy of rebuilding Shireroth instead of bickering about this (and with 'this' I mean the argument about whether it's a president or Kaiser).
Simply put. I'm opposed to your idea for simple reasons:
1. It's a (direct) democracy, while I want to keep the feudal system.
2. the Dukes would be elected.
3. Even worse: the Dukes would be elected by a national council, which means any stranger can get a job as governor in one of the provinces.
4. There were never arguments about how to appoint a Duke, so why should we change something that works?
5. The Kaiser shouldn't be elected to avoid that people bring some puppets to Shireroth to win the elections.
6. Why renaming everything? The Landsraad sounds good and 'provinces' is used by most nations. I'm not going to look for new, original names because what we have is all right.
From a distance I'm concerned about the rampant lawyerism manifesting itself in Shireroth currently. A simple Kaiserial slap on the wrist or censure by the community should suffice. - Jacobus Loki
Can't you see? I'm crazy!
Can't you see? I'm crazy!
- Falkner van der Sluijs
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Re: The future of the Government
I meant you're not allowed to turn us into a democracy.CJ Miller wrote:Since when is giving every citizen legislative power not a democracy?
Dutch of Kildare
Jarl in Asantelian
Steward of Shireroth
Swnndyrrr Ytteirsal
Perennial Ghoti
Jarl in Asantelian
Steward of Shireroth
Swnndyrrr Ytteirsal
Perennial Ghoti
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Re: The future of the Government
Malarbor has made his views on democracy fairly clear, I think.
I'd recommend a system designed with the assumption that we don't have enough citizens to sustain three dukes with three sub-citizens each. And probably suspending the Landsraad at the moment in favour of a council of war of the nobles.
I'd recommend a system designed with the assumption that we don't have enough citizens to sustain three dukes with three sub-citizens each. And probably suspending the Landsraad at the moment in favour of a council of war of the nobles.
The character Andreas the Wise is on indefinite leave.
However, this account still manages:
Cla'Udi - Count of Melangia
Manuel - CEO of VBNC. For all you'll ever need.
Vincent Waldgrave - Lord General of Gralus
Q - Director of SAMIN
Duke Mel'Kat - Air Pirate, Melangian, and Duke of the Flying Duchy of Glanurchy
And references may be made to Vur'Alm Xei'Bôn (a Nelagan Micron of undisclosed purpose).
However, this account still manages:
Cla'Udi - Count of Melangia
Manuel - CEO of VBNC. For all you'll ever need.
Vincent Waldgrave - Lord General of Gralus
Q - Director of SAMIN
Duke Mel'Kat - Air Pirate, Melangian, and Duke of the Flying Duchy of Glanurchy
And references may be made to Vur'Alm Xei'Bôn (a Nelagan Micron of undisclosed purpose).
Re: The future of the Government
Yeah! Like the Council of Mils that we had in Kildare.Andreas the Wise wrote:Malarbor has made his views on democracy fairly clear, I think.
I'd recommend a system designed with the assumption that we don't have enough citizens to sustain three dukes with three sub-citizens each. And probably suspending the Landsraad at the moment in favour of a council of war of the nobles.
The Imperial War Cabinet!
From a distance I'm concerned about the rampant lawyerism manifesting itself in Shireroth currently. A simple Kaiserial slap on the wrist or censure by the community should suffice. - Jacobus Loki
Can't you see? I'm crazy!
Can't you see? I'm crazy!
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Re: The future of the Government
A Three-Duchy system worked for a while as an interim solution.
It needs to be kept as simple as possible, and the Kaiser needs to be ready to Decree at the drop of a hat.
It needs to be kept as simple as possible, and the Kaiser needs to be ready to Decree at the drop of a hat.
Jacobus Loki
Shireroth sumus. Tempus in parte nostrum est.
Lord of Hallucination, Protector of Illumination, MiniEx of Shireroth, Traditional King of the Mala'anje.
Shireroth sumus. Tempus in parte nostrum est.
Lord of Hallucination, Protector of Illumination, MiniEx of Shireroth, Traditional King of the Mala'anje.
Re: The future of the Government
1 Duke, 1 vote.Jacobus Loki wrote:A Three-Duchy system worked for a while as an interim solution.
It needs to be kept as simple as possible, and the Kaiser needs to be ready to Decree at the drop of a hat.
From a distance I'm concerned about the rampant lawyerism manifesting itself in Shireroth currently. A simple Kaiserial slap on the wrist or censure by the community should suffice. - Jacobus Loki
Can't you see? I'm crazy!
Can't you see? I'm crazy!
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Re: The future of the Government
Amen.1 Duke, 1 vote
Jacobus Loki
Shireroth sumus. Tempus in parte nostrum est.
Lord of Hallucination, Protector of Illumination, MiniEx of Shireroth, Traditional King of the Mala'anje.
Shireroth sumus. Tempus in parte nostrum est.
Lord of Hallucination, Protector of Illumination, MiniEx of Shireroth, Traditional King of the Mala'anje.
- Harvey Steffke
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Re: The future of the Government
I'm having a very difficult time believing we're not just going in circles at this point...
Re: The future of the Government
So the reason we shouldn't do it is because otherwise we would use a system that we used for quite a long time?Harvey Steffke wrote:I'm having a very difficult time believing we're not just going in circles at this point...
I, honestly, found it the most simple and best system that we had. But that's just my opinion.
From a distance I'm concerned about the rampant lawyerism manifesting itself in Shireroth currently. A simple Kaiserial slap on the wrist or censure by the community should suffice. - Jacobus Loki
Can't you see? I'm crazy!
Can't you see? I'm crazy!
- Jacobus Loki
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Re: The future of the Government
There is an organic sense to Kaiser - Duke - Baron - Count. Almost anyone can grasp the basics in 5 minutes.
The Landsraad can be active, and challenge/co-operate with a Kaiser. If it goes to sleep, the Kaiser must be able to Decree. If the Kaiser gets weird, the Landsraad must be able to challenge him.
It is a built in balance of power.
If people are into complicated systems, they can do that in a Barony or Duchy to their hearts content.
The Landsraad can be active, and challenge/co-operate with a Kaiser. If it goes to sleep, the Kaiser must be able to Decree. If the Kaiser gets weird, the Landsraad must be able to challenge him.
It is a built in balance of power.
If people are into complicated systems, they can do that in a Barony or Duchy to their hearts content.
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Re: The future of the Government
Regardless, we were there, and we moved on for some reason or another. Whatever motivated us to do so appears to be forgotten and ignored.
And I maintain that the current issues cannot be solved by mere legislative reshuffling alone.
And I maintain that the current issues cannot be solved by mere legislative reshuffling alone.
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Re: The future of the Government
We changed, because influential people thought that things needed stirring up. It didn't work, or rather, it "worked" to stir things up, but in the wrong way.
Shirithians love Shireroth, but many of them also love their "home" region. The house system tore a lot of that apart, as evidenced by many actions.
I think the most important thing is to go back to a system where people could do what they want with "their" bit of Shireroth, but still participate in the larger community.
Shirithians love Shireroth, but many of them also love their "home" region. The house system tore a lot of that apart, as evidenced by many actions.
I think the most important thing is to go back to a system where people could do what they want with "their" bit of Shireroth, but still participate in the larger community.
Jacobus Loki
Shireroth sumus. Tempus in parte nostrum est.
Lord of Hallucination, Protector of Illumination, MiniEx of Shireroth, Traditional King of the Mala'anje.
Shireroth sumus. Tempus in parte nostrum est.
Lord of Hallucination, Protector of Illumination, MiniEx of Shireroth, Traditional King of the Mala'anje.
Re: The future of the Government
Indeed. I remember that I supported it in the beginning because I liked to see something new (or at least give the experiment a chance). I think most of us had the same thought.Jacobus Loki wrote:We changed, because influential people thought that things needed stirring up. It didn't work, or rather, it "worked" to stir things up, but in the wrong way.
But I'm sure that I hadn't any real problems with the system itself.
From a distance I'm concerned about the rampant lawyerism manifesting itself in Shireroth currently. A simple Kaiserial slap on the wrist or censure by the community should suffice. - Jacobus Loki
Can't you see? I'm crazy!
Can't you see? I'm crazy!
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Re: The future of the Government
I saw a lot of this coming.
I toyed with the idea of doing with Yardistan what is being done with Elwynn. I loathed seeing peoples homes being stripped from them, as what happened with me in Absentia, my little bit that I brought into Shireroth.
Rather, Kildare gave me shelter and a chance to stay in Shireroth with pride.
I heartily disliked the choking vine of laws that sooner or later would be ignored anyway.
But enough of what was wrong. A new, brighter future lies before us. CIROS sounds pretty cool.
I toyed with the idea of doing with Yardistan what is being done with Elwynn. I loathed seeing peoples homes being stripped from them, as what happened with me in Absentia, my little bit that I brought into Shireroth.
Rather, Kildare gave me shelter and a chance to stay in Shireroth with pride.
I heartily disliked the choking vine of laws that sooner or later would be ignored anyway.
But enough of what was wrong. A new, brighter future lies before us. CIROS sounds pretty cool.
Jacobus Loki
Shireroth sumus. Tempus in parte nostrum est.
Lord of Hallucination, Protector of Illumination, MiniEx of Shireroth, Traditional King of the Mala'anje.
Shireroth sumus. Tempus in parte nostrum est.
Lord of Hallucination, Protector of Illumination, MiniEx of Shireroth, Traditional King of the Mala'anje.
Re: The future of the Government
And avoids that we mess with a certain tradition.But enough of what was wrong. A new, brighter future lies before us. CIROS sounds pretty cool.
From a distance I'm concerned about the rampant lawyerism manifesting itself in Shireroth currently. A simple Kaiserial slap on the wrist or censure by the community should suffice. - Jacobus Loki
Can't you see? I'm crazy!
Can't you see? I'm crazy!
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Re: The future of the Government
Harvey is right though. We do need more then a reshuffle of laws.
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Re: The future of the Government
CIROS. Duchies. Maybe an addendum to the Charter.
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Re: The future of the Government
Well, as it stands the Kaiser could just come in and mess with the Duchies. Two ways to fix that.. 1. Charter revision. 2. The Great Convention! (a binding agreement between the Kaiser and the Nobles, violation of which would bring heavy consequences).
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Re: The future of the Government
Great Convention sounds very cool.
Jacobus Loki
Shireroth sumus. Tempus in parte nostrum est.
Lord of Hallucination, Protector of Illumination, MiniEx of Shireroth, Traditional King of the Mala'anje.
Shireroth sumus. Tempus in parte nostrum est.
Lord of Hallucination, Protector of Illumination, MiniEx of Shireroth, Traditional King of the Mala'anje.
Re: The future of the Government
Great Convention! Yay! Finally I will have the opportunity to use this picture!Erik Mortis wrote:Well, as it stands the Kaiser could just come in and mess with the Duchies. Two ways to fix that.. 1. Charter revision. 2. The Great Convention! (a binding agreement between the Kaiser and the Nobles, violation of which would bring heavy consequences).
But perhaps better that you first do the convention and afterwards a charter revision.
From a distance I'm concerned about the rampant lawyerism manifesting itself in Shireroth currently. A simple Kaiserial slap on the wrist or censure by the community should suffice. - Jacobus Loki
Can't you see? I'm crazy!
Can't you see? I'm crazy!
- Andreas the Wise
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Re: The future of the Government
Harvey, I hear what you're saying about how just going back to the old system can't solve all our problems because we moved away from it (therefore there must be something wrong with it). See my long rambly post here for more on that.
The character Andreas the Wise is on indefinite leave.
However, this account still manages:
Cla'Udi - Count of Melangia
Manuel - CEO of VBNC. For all you'll ever need.
Vincent Waldgrave - Lord General of Gralus
Q - Director of SAMIN
Duke Mel'Kat - Air Pirate, Melangian, and Duke of the Flying Duchy of Glanurchy
And references may be made to Vur'Alm Xei'Bôn (a Nelagan Micron of undisclosed purpose).
However, this account still manages:
Cla'Udi - Count of Melangia
Manuel - CEO of VBNC. For all you'll ever need.
Vincent Waldgrave - Lord General of Gralus
Q - Director of SAMIN
Duke Mel'Kat - Air Pirate, Melangian, and Duke of the Flying Duchy of Glanurchy
And references may be made to Vur'Alm Xei'Bôn (a Nelagan Micron of undisclosed purpose).
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