[Proposal] - Conserning the Line of Succession

[Allot]

Not only are you out of order, but you still have not provided a concrete response.

Your argument is that the Duke can promote people he likes, therefore they may support him should the rest of Elwynn decide to depose him? That is their choice to do so. As I said before, we must decide who is eligible to vote before deciding a suitable majority for impeachment.

The way I see it for this law to be effective there must be room for the probability of what Scott has said, that the Duke would have put a friend in a position of power Beforehand, could happen

The way I see it, that argument is invalid, and I critiqued it:

A law cannot be based upon the mere if scenario that a Duke could appoint someone before hand.

There is no logical way to prevent a Duke from promoting friends, and it is not given to you nor to any member of this Council to decide who is eligible to become a Baron and who is not. This Duchy will not become an oligarchy under me. It is between the Barons to discuss whether or not they feel a Duke is performing poorly, and if so, inform him. On another note, I am continually bemused by your inference that merely because people are friends they will collaborate together (I would point you to this discussion as evidence). I feel you are losing sight of the main purpose of this proposal: to prevent an inactive Duke from strangling activity SHOULD such an emergency occur. I will not see the Ducal powers limited in any other way for THIS proposal. We can discuss that elsewhere.

As to your other point, made later, I will repeat myself: In order to solve the voting majority problem, we must first decide WHO is eligible to vote.

[Harald of Froyalan]

Or we could compromise. Barons get two votes, counts get one. Two thirds of votes impeaches.

That sounds very good to me.

[Leo Fenrir]

Your grace. If I could address some of the things you said in your last speech.

There is no logical way to prevent a Duke from promoting friends.

If would kindly step down from your high chair I believe this is the point.

A law cannot be based upon the mere if scenario that a Duke could appoint someone before hand.

I ask you something. You who want a 4/4 vote for this to pass. How can you ignore a situation where almost every-time the vote will inevitably fail because 1 or more votes may already be forgone.

it is not given to you nor to any member of this Council to decide who is eligible to become a Baron and who is not. This Duchy will not become an oligarchy under me.

That may be but then again I do not remember ever saying it was. Also I see no significance to your second point. If you are inferring that the council would attempt to take power my I point out to you that there is none to take? That is unless you intend to disappear for a while.

I feel you are losing sight of the main purpose of this proposal: to prevent an inactive Duke from strangling activity SHOULD such an emergency occur. I will not see the Ducal powers limited in any other way for THIS proposal. We can discuss that elsewhere.

I would actually say that it is you who is losing track. I have done nothing but argue for a 3/4 vote while you have been the one to bring in your own reign. If you are questioning my commitment to this proposal then instead of making blanket accusatory statements then please address where I have deviated.

As to your other point, made later, I will repeat myself: In order to solve the voting majority problem, we must first decide WHO is eligible to vote.

First off I am not aware as to having made a second point. I merely reversed the question and asked you why you felt so strongly towards the 4/4 vote. Also you contradict yourself. When you say

In order to solve the voting majority problem

that implies you are willing to listen to others arguments where you have simply shot down mine. Either You want to address the problem, or there is no problem.

I admit you leave me in a confused state. I believe I have ample reasoning behind my argument where as you have merely shot it down every time without offering a valid reason. I do realize you are the duke and that you have the power to do what you want but if that is the road you will take then I entreat you to go ahead and do so and to stop hiding behind empty rhetoric and invalid arguments.

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I would actually agree with you Harald but it would even more useless if Allot demands a unanimous vote from the counts as well. However, should he come to his senses then this seems quite reasonable considering the people should be able to let their voice be heard when it comes to their leader.

[Allot]

Or we could compromise. Barons get two votes, counts get one. Two thirds of votes impeaches.

That is something of what I had in mind. Make it 3/4, and you have a deal.

Steward, you will control your outbursts in this Council or I will have you removed.

With all that being said, I will start a separate proposal to change the voting.

[Leo Fenrir]

That is something of what I had in mind. Make it 3/4, and you have a deal.

Of course you did. And basically you agree with me. Was that so hard?

I do excuse myself for my first outburst. But I don't think my last address was anything less then acceptable.

[Allot]

Arguing with you won't help Elwynn, so I won't.

Would all Barons please vote on this so that this discussion can continue?

[Scott of Hyperborea]

If we need 3/4 for the compromise to work, I can live with 3/4, but really, why not 2/3? If 2/3 of the people want the Duke out, what business does the Duke have holding on to power?

[Allot]

Same deal, really. 2/3 want him out, that means 33.3% want him in. In our Duchy of...11 people (you said), 2/3 is only 8 (rounded) people. Pretty much, I'm opposing this on the basis that it's quite democratic. It's pretty much that the majority get what they want, even if there's a substantial minority that opposes it (that's democracy). If it's 3/4, than I think we can say comfortably that almost all of Elwynn agreed (instead of just the majority of Elwynn).

[Leo Fenrir]

If I may ask a question your Grace. Should the vote not be unanimous instead of 3/4 even in the case of the Barons and Counts? If they are voting on something as important as impeaching a Duke there can't be anyone who disagrees on the topic right? An in-unanimous vote would just be illogical no? Just a question though.

[Allot]

As you so kindly pointed out previously, the Duke could have been an evil scheming bastard who's only aim was to appoint all his friends to noble positions and then they would vote for him. A 3/4 vote allows for that highly unlikely possibility. Unless, of course, you've changed your mind?

[Leo Fenrir]

Nope. I just wanted to hear you say it.

Anyways. Latest Amendments:

Decree: Enforcing the Line of Succession

i) Should the Duke of Elwynn ever meet the requirements described in ii) the Council of Eliria is given the power to vote on forcing the Duke to step down and allowing the next in the Line of Succession to take the Ducal throne. For the vote to pass all Counts and Barons must vote and the bill must pass by a 3/4 majority. The Duke may bot vote on the matter.

ii) The council is only granted this power in situations where the Duke is on an unannounced absence for an extended period of time three weeks or more and has neglected the Duchy.

iii) In the event of proceedings being initiated in Council for the deposition of the reigning Duke, the Duke shall be prohibited by this order from undertaking such measures that might permit the establishment of a body of client voters, with the effect of subverting the Council & diverting it from its intent. Such measures are deemed by this Council to include:
a) Ordering the dissolution or suspension of the Council whilst proceedings against the Duke are ongoing;
b) Appointing or dismissing Barons whilst proceedings against the Duke are ongoing;
c) Enfranchising other denizens and residents of Elwynn, including both Counts and Commoners, or naturalising outlanders into Elwynn with a view to enfranchising them similarly to vote on the Council whilst proceedings against the Duke are ongoing;
d) Any other action which the Council by unanimity considers to be similarly hostile in subverting its intent.

[Rai Avon-El]

Just a question -- what do we mean by week? In Shirerithian tradition, a week is 14 days...

[Allot]

Good clarification, Count. I think Leo meant Earthly weeks, so 1 and a half Shirithian weeks (21 days either way). But he will clarify and amend the wording, I'm sure.

[Aurangzeb Khan]

The Duke may bot vote on the matter.

Err. The Duke may vote if he is a spambot?

[Iskander Mirkdale]

Obviously having an automated Duke would avoid any potential problems with future absences, and one should be added to the Line of Succession as soon as humanly possible.

[Allot]

Sigh... *facepalm*

[Leo Fenrir]

Ok, ok. I got the point

Decree: Enforcing the Line of Succession

i) Should the Duke of Elwynn ever meet the requirements described in ii) the Council of Eliria is given the power to vote on forcing the Duke to step down and allowing the next in the Line of Succession to take the Ducal throne. For the vote to pass all Counts and Barons must vote and the bill must pass by a 3/4 majority. The Duke may not vote on the matter.

ii) The council is only granted this power in situations where the Duke is on an unannounced absence for an extended period of time three weeks (Earth time ie. 1.5 Shireroth weeks) or more and has neglected the Duchy.

iii) In the event of proceedings being initiated in Council for the deposition of the reigning Duke, the Duke shall be prohibited by this order from undertaking such measures that might permit the establishment of a body of client voters, with the effect of subverting the Council & diverting it from its intent. Such measures are deemed by this Council to include:
a) Ordering the dissolution or suspension of the Council whilst proceedings against the Duke are ongoing;
b) Appointing or dismissing Barons whilst proceedings against the Duke are ongoing;
c) Enfranchising other denizens and residents of Elwynn, including both Counts and Commoners, or naturalising outlanders into Elwynn with a view to enfranchising them similarly to vote on the Council whilst proceedings against the Duke are ongoing;
d) Any other action which the Council by unanimity considers to be similarly hostile in subverting its intent.

Though I must admit, a robotic Duke sounds awesome. We could program him to have some nifty catch phrase.

[Allot]

Would all members of the Council (including Counts) please vote on this. I will decree it if I consider that a sufficient majority of the Elwynn nobility have declared their support for this proposal.

[Aurangzeb Khan]

Aye

[Leo Fenrir]

Wintergleam says AYE

[Iskander Mirkdale]

Eliria and Utasia says AYE.

[Rai Avon-El]

Cape Farewell - Aye.

[Nathan of Natopia]

aye

[Harald of Froyalan]

Cimmeria - Aye.

[Leo Fenrir]

With a majority vote for the passing of this Bill I herby declare the Council closed.

The Duke will issue the Decree shortly.
Pokes Allot.