[Proposal] - Conserning the Line of Succession

[Leo Fenrir]

It came to my attention that following the events of the Elwynn revolt that the citizens and the Duke had come to an understanding of sorts regarding granting the council the power to enforce the Line of Succession. However no official decrees were released to legalize this power and I believe that it is an important factor in the maintenance of Elwynn's culture. I propose the following be implemented as a decree to grant the council the necessary power to act when necessary. I realize that this will require the Duke's approval, but I wanted to ensure that all the other nobles of Elwynn were of the same mind as me.

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Decree: Enforcing the Line of Succession

i) Should the Duke of Elwynn ever meet any of the requirements described in ii) the Council of Eliria is given the power to vote on forcing the Duke to step down and allowing the next in the Line of Succession to take the Ducal throne. For the vote to pass there must be 3 of the 4 Barons voting AYE. In the case of a tie the matter is then presented before the Landssrad.

ii) The council is only granted this power in situations where the Duke is:
a) Unannounced absence for an extended period of time [I'm not sure what an acceptable period of time so I would ask your opinion on this].
b) Neglecting Elwynn and its culture to the point of stagnant or negative growth.
c) [Anything I missed?]

iii) In the case that any of the situations described in ii) and a council meeting has been called to order, the Duke is denied the power to pass any decrees during the duration of the Council meeting that is concerning his deposing and/or the vote in the Landssrad.

[Allot]

An excellent proposal. A few ammendments:

I believe a unanimous vote of the Council should be required to impeach a Duke (4/4). Should the Duke also be a Baron, his vote will not be counted (a la Landsraad).

The inactivity period should be....hmmm....2 weeks? Three? That is, UNLESS, he has announced an official LOA, in which case he should have delegated his duties to the Steward or someone else.

b) Neglecting Elwynn and its culture to the point of stagnant or negative growth.

Please define.

Also, for a matter such as this, I will require a 3/4 vote of the Council in order to pass this.

[Leo Fenrir]

Amended,

Decree: Enforcing the Line of Succession

i) Should the Duke of Elwynn ever meet any of the requirements described in ii) the Council of Eliria is given the power to vote on forcing the Duke to step down and allowing the next in the Line of Succession to take the Ducal throne. For the vote to pass there must be 3 of the 4 Barons voting AYE. In the case of a tie the matter is then presented before the Landssrad.

ii) The council is only granted this power in situations where the Duke is:
a) Unannounced absence for an extended period of time weeks.
b) Neglecting Elwynn and its culture to the point of stagnant or negative growth. (ie. Censoring/Removing Posts simply because they conflict with his/her personal wants)

iii) In the case that any of the situations described in ii) and a council meeting has been called to order, the Duke is denied the power to pass any decrees during the duration of the Council meeting that is concerning his deposing and/or the vote in the Landssrad.

[Allot]

Thank you. Once again, however, I must insist that only a full unanimous Council may depose a Duke (after all, this IS a dictatorship ).

[Leo Fenrir]

Is it just me or is it very quiet in here. *Echo* *Echo* *Echo*

My apologies your grace. The only reason I would oppose the 4/4 is that there is a high possibility of one of the Baron's either being loyal or bribed by the Duke which would end up failing every time. If in light of this you still disagree I will amend the proposal.

[Aurangzeb Khan]

I'm a bit queasy about the definition of stagnant or negative growth, and the example that is cited is more akin to abuse of moderator status.

[Jacobus Loki]

Too technical, too lawyer-y.
We have tradition to guide us....

[Leo Fenrir]

Yet do we really want to risk another Iskander?

[Allot]

I'm a bit queasy about the definition of stagnant or negative growth, and the example that is cited is more akin to abuse of moderator status.

Very much agreed. As to your point, if that's the case, tough luck. The Duke should not be controlled by the Council which is what this bill is starting to look like. We agree with the principle in general, though.

And if a Baron is bribed, that's between him and the other Barons. Seeing as how there are only 4 Barons, 3/4 is just not enough to signify the majority of Elwynn, in our opinion.

[Leo Fenrir]

I see your points. In that case I will eliminate the ii) b clause. That takes away any of the worries you should have. So this is the latest amendment.

Decree: Enforcing the Line of Succession

i) Should the Duke of Elwynn ever meet the requirements described in ii) the Council of Eliria is given the power to vote on forcing the Duke to step down and allowing the next in the Line of Succession to take the Ducal throne. For the vote to pass there must be all 4 Barons voting AYE.

ii) The council is only granted this power in situations where the Duke is:
a) Unannounced absence for an extended period of time three weeks.

iii) In the case that any of the situations described in ii) and a council meeting has been called to order, the Duke is denied the power to pass any decrees during the duration of the Council meeting that is concerning his deposing.

[Allot]

I have no further objections. However, I would advise you to wait a few days for the rest of the Council to voice their opinions.

[Leo Fenrir]

I herby call for a vote on the Proposal.

Nordland votes AYE.

[Aurangzeb Khan]

I have no further objections. However, I would advise you to wait a few days for the rest of the Council to voice their opinions.
Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:37 am (GMT)

I herby call for a vote on the Proposal. Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:51 am (GMT)

Spot the disconnect.

Eliria registers its intention to vote Aye.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

I disagree with this. Keep in mind that under this proposal, the Council would not have been able to impeach Iskander Mirkdale: that only received the support of three of the four Barons.

The easy but dangerous way to solve this would be to add a clause that if the Duke himself is a Baron, that Baron's vote doesn't count.

But I think we should be going a little further. First of all, I don't see why you changed the rules so that only Barons could vote in this council. Why not counts? There's no particular tradition of Barons being more responsible or intelligent than Counts in Elwynn; in fact, some of Elwynn's most respected citizens like Rai Avon-El and Harald of Froyalan (both former Dukes) are currently Counts. Why shouldn't they get a vote, so that we can truly say the council speaks for all Elwynn?

I think 2/3 (or even 3/4) of all nobles including counts would be better.

[Aurangzeb Khan]

Hierarchy has to count for something? At the end of the day this is a feudal system rather than a democracy so we should be grateful that mechanisms for conciliar government exist at all, instead of demanding ever greater liberties. Counts are allowed to speak before the Council and should they wish to influence the vote of their Baron they should trust in the righteousness of their argument and the power of their rhetoric (and perhaps pecuniary considerations also) to secure the desired outcome.

[Leo Fenrir]

Regarding your disconnect Allot merely asked that we wait for the opinion of the others. All I did was ask for it in the form of a vote. (Desperate attempt to cover up mistake) So I move fast....

While your arguments are quite valid Scott I must agree that it does seem to defeat the purpose of the Hierarchy system if counts get to vote.

However I did forget to add the clause that the Duke may not vote if he is a baron with Allot actually mentioned himself. I will make the amendment to the proposal.

Are there any other amendments to be made?

Decree: Enforcing the Line of Succession

i) Should the Duke of Elwynn ever meet the requirements described in ii) the Council of Eliria is given the power to vote on forcing the Duke to step down and allowing the next in the Line of Succession to take the Ducal throne. For the vote to pass there must be all 4 Barons voting AYE, unless the Duke in question is one of the Baron's in which case his vote is discounted.

ii) The council is only granted this power in situations where the Duke is:
a) Unannounced absence for an extended period of time three weeks.

iii) In the case that any of the situations described in ii) and a council meeting has been called to order, the Duke is denied the power to pass any decrees during the duration of the Council meeting that is concerning his deposing.

[Aurangzeb Khan]

May I propose an amendment on the last point, that it should be changed to read as follows.

iii) In the event of proceedings being initiated in Council for the deposition of the reigning Duke, the Duke shall be prohibited by this order from undertaking such measures that might permit the establishment of a body of client voters, with the effect of subverting the Council & diverting it from its intent. Such measures are deemed by this Council to include:
a) Ordering the dissolution or suspension of the Council whilst proceedings against the Duke are ongoing;
b) Appointing or dismissing Barons whilst proceedings against the Duke are ongoing;
c) Enfranchising other denizens and residents of Elwynn, including both Counts and Commoners, or naturalising outlanders into Elwynn with a view to enfranchising them similarly to vote on the Council whilst proceedings against the Duke are ongoing;
d) Any other action which the Council by unanimity considers to be similarly hostile in subverting its intent.

[Jacobus Loki]

(shakes head slowly)

Merely an observation-

The human condition is to re-fight the last battle. The Iskander Affair was handled in a colourful, activity-generating fashion.

There was a nation that I was involved with for a long time. Every time someone did something unpopular, or (too popular), a Law was made to STOP THIS --insert problem-- FROM EVER HAPPENING AGAIN.

Doesn't work, stifles creativity.

Inacting a law will work only as long as people obey the law. A good, healthy rebellion will supercede any law, anyway, and lawyering (in my humble opinion) is boring.

But I'm a mere crotchety old Count, so, zzzzzzzzzzzz (falls asleep).

[Allot]

@Scott: Agreed with the rest of the Council. While Counts can speak, there should be some distinction between Barons & Counts.

@Leo: Told you not to forget that amendment...

@Ardy: How very lawyerish.... I approve.

[Leo Fenrir]

I must admit that I hadn't thought of it in that light Jake (if I may call you that). I admit that I don't have much experience yet with micronationalism and I suppose that may mean I don't make the best decisions yet. I am quiet tempted to retract my vote.

[Aurangzeb Khan]

I'd urge you not to - laws provide the framework for power-struggles and power struggles make the game interesting.

[Allot]

I'd urge you not to - laws provide the framework for power-struggles and power struggles make the game interesting.

Correct. A lawless society (which seems to be your ideal world, Jacobus) will not necessarily enhance activity. In fact, if anything, I would think that this law merely prevents a lack of activity from seizing Elwynn. I doubt this law will be used unless we get into another Iskander situation, I personally think that the Dukes of all the Duchies should roughly follow the Kaiserial tradition of the "3-month rule".

[Jacobus Loki]

As I said, I'm only a sleepy old count.

I don't mind laws. I object to the proliferation of them, so that one must hire mercinaries to untangle them, to read them for us.

I guess I object to lawyers more than laws.

[Aurangzeb Khan]

Oh I'm sure disputes over the interpretation of the finer points of local law will be resolved by a scholarly bout of cudgels so you need have no fear of a plague of lawyers my libertarian friend...

[Scott of Hyperborea]

I continue to maintain that requiring the assent of all Barons (or even all 3 non-Duke Barons) is setting the bar too high.

First, consider. There are eleven people in Elwynn right now. Under this law, it's possible to keep a Duke even if 9/11ths of Elwynn want him out and only 2 people (the Duke and one loyal Baron) want to keep him. That's not even close to being right. If everyone except one guy hates the Duke, we shouldn't be legally obliged to keep him.

Second, remember what Iain did just a few weeks ago? Invited a friendly foreigner into Elwynn and promoted him to nobility. If I were a bad Duke and I didn't want to be impeached, I'd do exactly the same thing. Fire a Baron, get a supporter to move in, promote the supporter to Baron. Boom. Unimpeachable. Don't say it would never happen, it almost happened two weeks ago except that we didn't have this restrictive law you're trying to get passed.

Allot, if this law had existed two weeks ago, Iain could have started a vote in the Council, promoted Ardashir to Baron status, Ardashir would have voted in his favor, and your rebellion would have failed completely. We couldn't even have tried an illegal rebellion, because Iain could have pointed to the Council's decision as evidence that the populace wasn't *really* against him. This law basically just completely removes the successful and obviously necessary pathway by which you attained office.

Duchies are under no obligation to follow feudalism in their internal structure. Indeed, many don't. Yardistan has a Diet, Kildare has a Seanad, and Straylight has...no one knows, but it's probably not feudalism. There's no reason to stick to that form of government if it's not appropriate for us.

Or we could compromise. Barons get two votes, counts get one. Two thirds of votes impeaches.

[Aurangzeb Khan]

Scott under the proposal here Iskander would not have been able to prevent a vote to replace him after his period of absence nor would he have been able to ennoble foreign supporters like he did (hence my being here - though I should point out it was Jacobus who made me Baron) to influence the vote.

This proposal enforces the succession and defends it against both conspiracy amongst the populace and the absenteeism of the Lord, grant that such should never occur under the current reign.

[Allot]

Indeed, Scott, the Khan's proposal includes barring the Duke from:

a) Ordering the dissolution or suspension of the Council whilst proceedings against the Duke are ongoing;
b) Appointing or dismissing Barons whilst proceedings against the Duke are ongoing;
c) Enfranchising other denizens and residents of Elwynn, including both Counts and Commoners, or naturalising outlanders into Elwynn with a view to enfranchising them similarly to vote on the Council whilst proceedings against the Duke are ongoing;
d) Any other action which the Council by unanimity considers to be similarly hostile in subverting its intent.

I see no potential re-enactment of the Iskander scenario under this proposal.

[Leo Fenrir]

I would like to revisit the 3/4 votes though. I know you feel the need to have unanimity to impeach, but it just isn't logical. I would hope that the Baron's of Elwynn would be above the abuse of this law. The way I see it for this law to be effective there must be room for the probability of what Scott has said, that the Duke would have put a friend in a position of power Beforehand, could happen. This does of course need your approval Your Grace... I just hope you can see it my way.

[Allot]

@Leo: Your argument is not logical. A law cannot be based upon the mere if scenario that a Duke could appoint someone before hand. So every Baron should be screened to see if they are loyal to the Duke (which you all should technically be anyway)?

@Scott: A valid point. I actually am very intrigued by the powers the Saenad holds over the Duke of Kildare. The Saenad can veto the Duke's vote in the Landsraad. (SEPARATE FROM THIS COUNCIL) I would like to see some of this introduced into Elwynn.

HOWEVER, concerning your points:

Allot,this law had existed two weeks ago, Iain could have started a vote in the Council, promoted Ardashir to Baron status, Ardashir would have voted in his favor, and your rebellion would have failed completely. We couldn't even have tried an illegal rebellion, because Iain could have pointed to the Council's decision as evidence that the populace wasn't *really* against him. This law basically just completely removes the successful and obviously necessary pathway by which you attained office.

The objective of this law is that rebellion will not be necessary. The reason Ardashir's amendment is necessary is that as soon as someone calls for a vote on this, the Duke's powers are frozen totally. He can't interfere with this process except indirectly, through other Barons.

@Both of you: Re: 3/4 vs 4/4. This needs to be discussed in depth. A vital part of this debate is whether or not Counts should be allowed to vote.

[Leo Fenrir]

@Allot: You who flaunts your 'logic' and your 'fallacies' should be able to see an argument when it has been laid before you. While I agree that it is a ridiculous thought to 'screen' each Baron it is also not what I was implying had you taken the time to interpret. I was merely stating that the chances of one of the Barons being a personal friend to the Duke before a council is called to order is not only probable, but extremely high. If this isn't logical enough for you then let me expand. As mentioned there are maybe 11 citizens right now in Elwynn which means that we inevitably interact and develop relationships and friendships. Now consider how people take positions of power. Because this system is feudalistic it is given to them by those higher up. A Duke would probably end up favoring those people he has the best relations with. Now how do you favor someone? You give them positions. If this still isn't enough to argue this point logically then I would like your definition of the word as I believe may have a disconnect.

Now. I apologize to the council for speaking in such an open and disrespectful manner, but from experience, Our gracious Duke sees what he wants to see (albeit in a very engaging and comic way). I would instead of arguing my point, hear how the Duke plans to make this law a useful one when its effectiveness is so compromised.