Conversations with Greg

[Fax Celestis]

SCREWED!//ahemI mean....I think it would as well.If Foghorn or Rose or someone isn't already CorpOff there, I'll volunteer my services. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[Delphi]

Yes guys, I was alluding to Shireroth in that speech of mine.I think as soon as this happens, it should officially mark the end of the SHINE-AMI relationship. Good luck in future ventures. I hope you don't catch any of our boys trying to get back in here.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

ministries.shireroth.org/.../greg1.htmAs far as I know, Delphi believes the same thing as Greg, only more so.I think it might be time for us to recognize the Republic of Antica, even if that means the Dinarchy will unrecognize us. The Republic is not going away, and last weekend proved that they are willing to be our friends and very cool people. Some leading Republican citizens are also part of Shireroth. And it would be hugely embarrassing if the Grand Commonwealth recognized them before we did.I realize that the Dinarchy has been a good and loyal friend to us, but their new policy seems to be that they are more interested in thwarting the Republic than in being part of the micronational community, and we can't build a reputation as being swayed by blackmail. I suggest that we get the MiniEx himself to tell the Dinarchy we value their friendship and hope they will reconsider their policy but that it's time for us to recognize the Republic whether they do or not.This would make an excellent issue to put to a Landsraad vote, I think.

[UEC]

You guys are being rather.... err... stubborn.. But I see why..Scott.. how would we react if Kildare secceeded.. and claimed to be the Shireroth inheritor or successor or whatever.. We would proly adopt a similar policy.. well..accually.. we'de proly bomb the living crap out of them.. but that is besides the point..hehe E. Metzler (UEC)Duke of Brookshire"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSClicky Clicky..., Tiss for your own good ya know.

[Fax Celestis]

I'm fairly certain that the Republic isn't claiming to be the true Antica, just a derivative thereof.Otherwise, both sides of this conflict are being rather dumb. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Erik, while you are right, there are a few extenuating circumstances. First, the vast majority of Antica's pre-split population left and are now in the Republic. Second, the Republic was partially founded by one of Antica's two Dinarchs, their top governing officials. Third, the Republic has consistently expressed a willingness to negotiate for reunification with the Dinarchy if the Dinarchy will agree to some of the proposals they originally wanted during the civil war. For all these reasons, I believe that this is not just a normal case of secession.The Republic has no quarrel with the Dinarchy, is not attempting to claim excessive Dinarchial land, and is not going away any time soon. They are potentially our greatest ally, especially now that the Dinarchy has decided not to like us just because we won't condemn the Republic no questions asked. From a geopolitical point of view, considering the Dinarchy's abandonment both of us and of the intermicronational community in general, we really don't have any other options.

[Kaiser Yarad I]

I agree with Scott. The three months for us to put off recognising the Republic are nearly up, and I think that when the date comes we should do it. Or perhaps earlier. I've some October awards to hand out, after all, we could make a show of it.If the Dinarchy wants to try and restrict our foreign policy through emotional blackmail (which is what this whole "If you like them better than us, we're going to be so mad" approach adds up to, really..) then this is our only recourse. If a long and fruitful alliance must come to an end, so be it. At least we can say we didn't instigate its end. This is a sad moment, but when it all comes down to it, what we are doing is losing one long-held ally that is refusing to consider its own future because they're having far too much fun being haughty and feeling betrayed, and gaining another that is actually willing to work within the intermicronational system. Staying with the Dinarchy and fighting their fights might be very noble, but it wouldn't be a smart move, in my opinion.Aside from all this, I would assume that the AMI guys won't be allowed in here anymore?

[Delphi]

Let me make something clear. It's not a matter of an attempt to influence anyone in our resolution, it's a matter of what we can and can not stand for in terms of our allies.And while on the outside it looks like those of the RoA are being nice, behind the scenes I wish you could see how much they're rooting for the Dinarchy to go down. They're not "burying the hatchet" for any purpose other than to make themselves look more appealing, and I refuse to go and both compromise what we believe in and deceive anyone into believing that we're willing to do something and then keep our fingers crossed.I'm fully aware that it might have been beneficial to accept some terms of niceness with them but it would not have been genuine, and while I have a problem with disingenuity, they don't, so they come out "on top". I think what's happening here sucks, and Il'l be quite honest, while I haven't really been trying to win over your support, I think your unwillingness to even remain neutral here is appalling and a betrayal of the alliance and back-room activities we've engaged in for so long. I've for so long considered Shireroth our closest ally, and it's sad to see that come to and end.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

On what grounds do you criticize our "unwillingness to remain neutral"? For the past two months, we have recognized you but not recognized the Republic. If the Kaiser listens to my suggestions, we will be recognizing the Republic. This will be neutrality: recognizing both parties equally. If you choose to break off any treaties with us on account of that, then that is in no way an example of us betraying neutrality but rather a choice on your part not to accept anything but total commitment.We have done everything possible to support you over the past few months, from giving you intelligence information about the rebels to convincing our friends not to derecognize you to speaking out in your favor on various intermicronational forums. You have responded by progressively getting angrier and angrier at us for not completely cutting off all contacts with the rebels, and by proving yourself willing to sacrifice Antica's position in the micronational world in an attempt to satisfy your anger at the Republic. Neither of those speak to an alliance that could be very fruitful in the future.I don't want this to become a situation where we dislike one another. I in fact would have no problem with you continuing to have SHINE access if the Kaiser does not object. I consider this us saying that we have decided that, although we recognize you dislike the Republic, that dislike is misplaced and we wish to recognize them. That is all. If you want to break off our alliance on that point, you may do so, but it is not our intent in making this move nor what we consider a desirable result. We simply have reached the point where remaining in a state of abnormal relations with a country we just really don't hate as much as you seem to no longer interests us.I'll reiterate to you what I said to Greg - that I still think the best solution to this would be you and the rebels discussing terms to recreate the old Antica that was so exciting and prosperous. They seceded. Get over it.

[Fax Celestis]

What he said. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[UEC]

Yes.. but it is easy to make yourself look like the victim.. just play nice to the outside world.. and everyone will think you are the good guy. Personally.. I don't think we should get involved in anyway. I'de almost wanna say unrecognize them both till they can play nice.. or at least recognize that at this point they are BOTH micronations, seperate of each other...IE.. I recognize where the Dinarchy is comeing from.. I would even go so far as to agree with their stance. But they are basicly asking us to ignore the fact that this republic now exsists as a micronation. We could state we don't recognize them as a part of Antica.. or whatever.. just as a nation that exsists. That the Dinarchy is Antica.. and the only one... (we are talking about Antica right? I've been away far to long...) E. Metzler (UEC)Duke of Brookshire"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSClicky Clicky..., Tiss for your own good ya know.

[Fax Celestis]

Shouldn't matter. The Dinarchy has said that anyone who has relations with the Republic is black-listed, so even if we recognize them as you say we should, they'll still turn on us. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[Kaiser Yarad I]

Also, one of our citizens is a citizen of the Republic, and quite a prominent one there at that. If we de-recognise the Republic, what implications does that bring for the future of his citizenship here?

[Scott of Hyperborea]

I would hope that's not the standard we're using these days to make tough geopolitical decisions. Otherwise I see a close alliance with Stormark in our future Edité(e)(s) par: Scott of Hyperborea  à: 10/23/05 13:15

[UEC]

It makes no difference to his citizenship here if we don't recognize them, just as long as we are not hostile to them, or them to us, his cit is fine. as long as it is under the limit.What does it mean to recognize a nation anyways? We recognize the exsist? we recognize they are legit? We recognize their land claims? What?We can recognize that a nation exsists, but not they have legit claim to some of the lands they claim. By even talking about them we kinda recognize they exsists.Accually.. by saying others can't recognize them.. the Dinarchy is in a way recognizing their exsistance at the very least.. Which is all I would suggest we do.We could always negotiate a peace? I tried it with Cyberia and Jacobus.. it was technically successful. Though we all knew he would go back on it... But anyways...We could do that same again here? E. Metzler (UEC)Duke of Brookshire"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSClicky Clicky..., Tiss for your own good ya know.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Erik, I have been trying for two months to negotiate a peace, unsuccessfully. Read the conversation that started this thread.Anyhow, someone with the power Landsraad this, please. Edité(e)(s) par: Scott of Hyperborea  à: 10/23/05 21:48

[Gryphon the Pure]

I've always seen unrecognition as a pointless effort. Unrecognizing a micronation actually gives their citizens an advantage in our nation, in that their dual citizenship doesn't technically count. *shrug*

[UEC]

It does in Shireroth. We don't need to formally recognize a nation for citizenship to count toward our totals.. most nations don't have those laws.. so it's not an issue.We could make a formal public invitation? E. Metzler (UEC)Duke of Brookshire"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSClicky Clicky..., Tiss for your own good ya know.

[AngelGuardian93]

BAH! Why does he have to share my name. I was worried for a second. What will happen if we do break off our alliance? Do we go public? Do they? Do we agree to keep the silence? There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

I think we'll probably both keep silence. Neither of us knows too much of interest about the other, if either of us does disclose then the other will obviously disclose, so it would hurt both of us, and I think we're both generally honorable about this sort of thing.WOULD SOMEONE PUT THIS BEFORE THE LANDSRAAD?? PLEASE??

[AngelGuardian93]

Scott, talk to me on AIM about this tomorrow. There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[Ari Rahikkala]

Requesting declassification per Declassification act of 3742.