Feudalism Revamped..

[Kaiser Yarad I]

This here's my idea for how feudalism should be restructured in this Imperial Republic of ours. I would like comments and criticism from you, the people I appointed to do so..First of all, there would be changes in the amounts needed for the formation of each new Duchy/Barony. A Barony would now require 2 citizens, and a Duchy would require a minimum of 4. I know this is lowering the quotas, but with the new system it mightn’t be as important to have high quotas for fiefdoms.Now, every citizen would become an automatic Count. When they apply to join Shireroth, they can either choose or be allocated a County to become the noble of. They will then, unless they then choose to align their County with an existing forum fiefdom (as I will refer to them), become a member of the Noble Commons, a new forum created for people to put any cultural stuff they devise for their Counties, make alliances or advertise for those wishing to align and get a forum.Existing fiefdoms, whether Duchies or Baronies, will be only slightly revamped, and no-one will actually be demoted, whether their present fiefdom meets quotas or not. Those Baronies that are still subservient to a Duke will remain so. It will now be recognised, however, that the Duchies and Baronies consist of alliances of Counts and Barons, with the Duke being the Baron or Count who has emerged as leader, or being granted leadership by the Kaiser. A list will be kept of who is Count or Baron of what. The Duke of Brookshire, for example, would also be listed as being the Count of whatever zir original County was. For example, take the Duchy of Kildare. Hypatia, while being Dutchess of Kildare, is also Countess of Old Hallucination. For the purposes of feudalism, it is of course her status as Dutchess that is her “legal” status, but her own personal claim only extends to Old Hallucination. She reigns over Kildare by the consent of her constituent nobles. These nobles being Joseph, Count of Blackrock Nua, Bill, Baron of Antya and Count of New Jasonia, Eoin (for the sake of the argument), Count of Volsung, Shacia, Countess of Vervollkommnung, Rarkasha, Count of Djugagrad (or wherever Djugagrad is), Iain, Count of Lothlaria, and Derek, who would have to pick a County because he currently resides in Blackrock Nua. Now, two of the Counts of Kildare, Bill, Joseph and Rarkarsha, have formed a Barony. This Barony is subservient to Kildare, and receives its own forum. The rest of the Counts are still in Kildare.Now, it is important that we realise that Kildare under this new system will consist only of the amount of territory brought to it by Counts. All other territory not owned by individual citizens and therefore subsumed into Kildare will be owned by the Kaiser, who in conjunction with the Ministry of Immigration will dole out land to newcomers.This of course would require careful territory records being kept, and would need special emphasis to be placed on loyalty. I haven’t worked it out yet (the only flaw in this plan) what kind of system we’d need to have to ensure that Counts did not simply flip over and back between Baronies and Duchies, causing upset and destroying carefully-crafted fiefdoms. But you’re always going to have arseholes, and perhaps this cut-and-thrust system would bring more activity and excitement. Although perhaps knowing Shireroth it would create resentment and bitterness…that would still be better in a lot of respects than the boredom and inactivity we have in a lot of situations currently.Now, for the other part. It would be possible for, say, three Counts who frequent the Noble Commons to form a Barony without having to be subservient to a Duchy. While of course the Baron would still be below a Duke or Dutch on the social ranking, and have less votes in the Landsraad, they would be answerable within their fiefdom only to the Kaiser. If two Baronies wish to join together to form a Duchy, with one or other of the Baronies becoming the Duchy and the other becoming a constituent Barony, they would be free to do so, so long as notice of this alliance was posted within three days or so in the Noble Commons. This would hopefully create a more free-form feudal system than what we have currently, where there are always “the big three” and everyone tries to manoeuvre as much as possible without damaging them in any big way.So now we have the issue that while it is desirable for Counties who form Baronies to be geographically close together, it is not necessary by any means. Even Duchies could have a scattering of different territory from all around the Imperial Republic. This could create an interesting geographical mix, with dormant Duchies like Jaris seeing life for a time, even if it is only a small part of Jaris revived for the purposes of alliance into a Barony made mainly from mainland Shirerithian territories. As for people coming and going in and out of fiefdoms, I think there should be regulation. Counts should have to give at least two weeks notice before actually leaving the fiefdom, allowing their Duke/Baron to discuss it with them beforehand. If their leaving would result in the demotion of the Barony/Duchy, I think it should be necessary for them to find a replacement Count to fill the gap, unless there are special circumstances such as unfair treatment or so forth, where the Kaiser thinks that it is perhaps just that the Duke suffers demotion for treating their subjects unfairly.So here’s my plan in a few easy points:1)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Re-draw the territorial boundaries to include only the Counties held by individual citizens as belonging to any particular Duchy. All others shall be owned by the Kaiser.2)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Create a Noble Commons as a base for all fledgeling Counties. This would be a centre for culture and for Counts to discuss and form alliances.3)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Restructure the Landsraad to give Dukes a certain number of votes, with increases for number of citizens above their quota and so forth, and to give Barons who are independent independent votes. Barons who are subservient to a Baron should be given the bonus votes their Duke receives for having a Barony within their Duchy. Counts may be able to buy votes, depending on the economy.4)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp Allocate Counties to new citizens, and inform them of any existing culture in that fiefdom beforehand which they should follow. They would then be given the option of “going it on zir own” or joining a larger fiefdom. The former provides opportunity for starting a fiefdom from scratch, the latter provides a more hands on experience of life within a larger subdivision, perhaps providing ideas for later fiefdoms.5)&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp The current fiefdoms would not be demoted if they’re below quota, but it would be desirous to achieve quota as soon as possible.

[Shyriath]

I'm intrigued, but I need to think about this a while before I say I like it. The two things that make me definitely uneasy are: 1) the possibility of flip-flopping Counties, and 2) the idea of the different Counties becoming a patchwork on the map.The first (which, of course, you yourself pointed out), I think, might be handled by means of something Ruhan Erudinzadeh thought up a while back, which called for a sort of contract... two or more parties promised to agree to, and abide by, a set of terms, which would then be binding upon those agreeing. A violation of the contract would be grounds for legal action in the Imperial Judex.In a similar way, those Counties making up a larger subdivision could enter into some sort of legally binding contract, welding the Counties together for a specified period and establishing a ruling Duke/Baron. If they wanted to get more detailed than that, then the initial contract could even lay down basic rules of governance, methods of succession, etc., becoming in effect a sort of mini-constitution for the subdivision. But by agreeing to such terms, they then would have to live with them for as long as the contract stipulated, or face punishment under the law. Of course, such contracts would themselves have to be closely watched, to make sure that they don't clash with Imperial law.On the second point, that of widely separated counties becoming parts of the same subdivision, I can only argue on the grounds of aesthetics and of cartography, especially the latter... let's face it, it could make mapping a nightmare.

[Kaiser Yarad I]

Your concerns are pretty much the only holes I could find myself in the idea, Shyriath, but I've given them some thought and I think they're easily solved, or at least worked out.First, as for alliances and hopping Counts, this issue could be resolved with alliance contracts, stipulating terms of the established fiefdom, who will be in control, how people can leave, if people can leave, etc. Those who broke the terms of the contract, considered them unfair or wanted to have them changed would be able to go to the Imperial Judex, which could undergo a sort of revival as a Land Court, not that it will be called that. All disputes between nobles regarding alliances and so forth (and there will probably be a good few) should be put through the Judex. I guess we'd have to appoint someone then...As for aesthetics and mapping difficulties, I don't know that this is as serious as you might think. For a start, the actual map wouldn't really undergo any change, except perhaps for a greater division of some of the larger land blocs (Goldshire, for example, would be unfair for just one Count to wholly own, so we might divide it up into smaller bits). We can see the start of the new feudal system with the new Kaiserial Realm. Since technically all of Shireroth is in the Kaiserial Realm, I think this new arrangement, with diverse nobles forming an alliance, perhaps from halway across our Micratian globe, would be interesting to see. People could compile maps of territories their alliance holds. It would become desirable to own, let's say, the Lunatic Coast, so you have to try to acquire Amarr, Alexandretta and Lunaris. Not that there will be such a Pokémon ethos to it, but I don't think that aesthetically-challenged alliances will be that much of a concern, as we've got long-established mindsets as to who likes to live where already, haven't we?

[Fax Celestis]

I was thinking more of a Monopoly mindset than Pokemon, but the analogy's the same. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[Kaiser Yarad I]

Well certainly that would hopefully not happen. The idea of fiefdoms, after all, is to develop good, interesting, genuine cultures and to have a bit of fun in the process, as well as politicking, not just to cultivate a "good address", to borrow from certain materialist Irish cliques who shall not be further mentioned....Any suggestions to combat this or prevent it from happening or is it enough of an issue to warrant such a plan?

[Kaiser Yarad I]

Bill's Map of Shireroth would be a good basis for the new "everyone gets a County" plan. Thing is there's not enough Counties.Perhaps just doling out Counties upon entry isn't such a good idea, either that or we need to divide them up more.

[Fax Celestis]

I believe smaller counties would suffice.I mean, the Barony of Naudia'Diva contains Naudia'Diva, Benacia, and a number of unnamed islands. Each of those islands is a single entity, and could potentially be a county. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[Fax Celestis]

Idea:Quote:Fiefdoms with non-territorially contiguous lands, with citizens numbering between two and three citizens shall be given two votes in the Landsraad. This type of fiefdom shall be known as a Barony.Fiefdoms with territorially contiguous lands, with citizens numbering between two and three citizens shall be given three votes in the Landsraad. This type of fiefdom shall be known as a Barony.Fiefdoms with non-territorially contiguous lands, with citizens numbering between four and six citizens shall be given five votes in the Landsraad. This type of fiefdom shall be known as a Duchy.Fiefdoms with territorially contiguous lands, with citizens numbering between four and six citizens shall be given seven votes in the Landsraad. This type of fiefdom shall be known as a Duchy.Fiefdoms with non-territorially contiguous lands, with citizens numbering more than seven citizens shall be given nine votes in the Landsraad. This type of fiefdom shall be known as a Grand Duchy.Fiefdoms with territorially contiguous lands, with citizens numbering more than seven citizens shall be given eleven votes in the Landsraad. This type of fiefdom shall be known as a Grand Duchy.This provides an incentive for territorial continuity, as well as provides a basis for what kinds of fiefdoms are available.This, of course, is entirely changeable, but it provides a good basis.I'll start dividing things up into counties if no one else wants to, but I'll wait for the Kaiser's "go" before I start. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink RegigoraaukEdited by: Fax Celestis  at: 10/18/05 20:46

[Gryphon the Pure]

For starters, I love this idea.My initial response, however, is something of a "but... but... land... contiguousness... I want all of my Kildare..." and I'm sure if anyone else were Dutch of Kildare, they'd have the same feeling. Right now, even considering Bill's map, Kildare's subdivisions are smallest and most numbered. In order to carry out this plan, there should be some sort of standardization to counties, be it by landmass, population, climate, resource, economic stability, or otherwise.This plan seems to play off the mechanic I had proposed in my Apollonian Republic plan, and it seems to leave the same hole that I remember having difficulty filling, that being the issue of unclaimed territories stagnating. In my proposal, I suggested that the idea of Thanedoms be adopted in that active counties could extend their cultural influence, albeit lesser by strength, to adjacent unclaimed territories. The easiest way to limit the influence of a Thanedom would be by water borders, that is, a Brookshirian county could influence most of Brookshire, but would not have influence across to Kildare, or, godforbid, Cognito. Exceptions could be made for archipelagos and islands, which could give a one-hop influence, for example between Amity and Mirioth, Schlangen and Gong Li, Lesser and Greater Automatica, etc.Alternatively, we could set specific border limits as Thanedoms such as the Thanedom of West Kildare or the Thanedom of Goldshire, which would facilitate the bonus-giving for territorially contiguous regions by applying a sort of monopoly-style factor, e.g. one vote for each Thanedom represented in a fiefdom, and two votes for the fiefdom for each county in excess of one in any Thanedom.In this manner, a two-county Barony would get two votes if the counties were in separate Thanedoms (one for each) and three votes if the counties were in the same Thanedom (one for the Thanedom and two for the second county). Similarly a four-county "Duchy" would get four votes if everyone was from a different region, or as much as seven votes if everyone was from the same region, and a seven-county "Grand Duchy" would get seven votes if everyone was from a different region and as much as thirteen votes if everyone was from the same region (though hopefully we won't have any thanedoms with seven counties in them).In this manner, we could enact your plan of separating counties from Duchies but still have incentive to retain the traditional Shirithian fiefdoms, but it would be totally voluntary on the part of the citizens.A variant on the Thanedom suggestion would be to instead of set regions, use mutual borders as the definition of a Thanedom; for example, a fiefdom might get one vote for every County involved and an extra vote for every pair of counties that is bordering. The trouble with this method of determining territorial contiguousness is that it creates a sort of caste among the counties, where the counties with more borders are more favourable than counties with fewer borders, so whoever owns Vervollkommnung would have a natural advantage by votes in a fiefdom over the count of Norfolk or Hyperborea. Ideally, each Thanedom should have an equal number of counties.As for scalability, we could establish that if a fiefdom controls all counties within multiple Thanedoms, it could get an additional bonus in votes or economy or whatever we base on territory. Scion of the Mog Kaiser

[Fax Celestis]

I think that "territorial congruity" can be more easily defined as "reasonably near", for values of "reasonably near" equal to "touching", or in the case of islands "within 50 pixels".Also: I think the counties from the newly redone Map of Kildare are of a good size. Unfortunately, that means the redone Map of Shireroth is going to need a few modifications, as Elwynn is one huge territory, Brookshire has a lot of big bits, and Yardistan has about ten Counties (much smaller than Brookshire's 14, or Kildare's 16).I'm all for it, but I think Bill should continue with his work. Let him divide it further, as he has done a remarkable job so far.That would, of course, make him have to be party to the plot. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink RegigoraaukEdited by: Fax Celestis  at: 10/18/05 23:58

[Kaiser Yarad I]

This isn't a plot, this is policy!Alright, I like Joe's idea. All we need is more Counties and then a list of what Counties are in which Thanedom. Perhaps if a Duke (more probably Grand Duke, I like that too) controlled all of a Thanedom they could get the title Thane of Such and Such, and if they controlled two they would be a High Thane? Hopefully there won't be that much of a monopoly ethic to it all, but it could happen. At the same time, though, we'd have to ensure that a soveriegn Barony within a Thanedom was not harrassed unduly into an alliance by a larger power.Fax's "reasonable nearness" sounds a bit harder to manage. I think that could apply where the borders of Thanedoms lie. If one County is in the Thanedom of North Kildare, and its nearest touching neighbour to the south is in the Thanedom of South Kildare, then perhaps for voting purposes it should be regarded as territorially contiguous.I have no real problem making Bill part of the plot. Letting him in here would be my only qualm, and I don't really think that's absolutely necessary. Although the idea of making Bill one of my Imperial Advisors has a certain giddy thrill

[Gryphon the Pure]

Howabout this:Quote:Fiefdoms and Nobles:a) Fiefdoms of Shireroth shall consist of Manors, Counties, Baronies, Duchies, Grand Duchies, and Thanedoms, as described in the following sections.b) Nobles of Shireroth shall consist of the Lesser Nobility, the Greater Nobility, and the Honourary Nobility, as described in the following sections.Lesser Nobility:a) The Lesser Nobility of Shireroth shall consist of Mayors and Countsb) A Mayor shall be a Citizen of Shireroth who is still a Minor by Naturalization standards.c) A Count shall be a Citizen of Shireroth who has passed Naturalization standards to be considered a Full Citizen.d) Lesser Nobility shall each be granted a plot of land by the Kaiser, known as a County if ruled over by a Count, and a Manor if ruled over by a Mayor.Greater Nobility:a) The Greater Nobility of Shireroth shall consist of Barons, Dukes, and Grand Dukesb) A Baron shall be a Count of Shireroth who, in contract with at least one other Count, is granted the authority to rule over the Counties and Manors constituent to the contract. His rule shall be deemed a Barony.c) A Duke shall be a Baron of Shireroth who, in contract with at least one other Baron, is granted the authority to rule over the Baronies, Counties, and Manors constituent to the contract. His rule shall be deemed a Duchy.d) A Grand Duke shall be a Duke of Shireroth who, in contract with at least one other Duke, is granted the authority to rule over the Duchies, Baronies, Counties, and Manors constituent to the contract. His rule shall be deemed a Grand Duchy.Honourary Nobility:a) The Honourary Nobility of Shireroth shall consist of Thanes and High Thanes.b) Thanedoms shall be established by the Kaiser or Justice as geographically reasonable groupings of Counties whose culture and politics are mutually influenced. These Thanedoms should be named and may or may not overlap.c) A Greater Noble of Shireroth who controls all Counties within a Thanedom shall be known as the Thane of that Thanedom.d) A Greater Noble of Shireroth who controls all Counties within more than one Thanedom shall be known as the High Thane of those Thanedoms.e) The title of Thane or High Thane shall be given only to the Greater Noble of lowest rank who qualifies for the title; if a Duke controls a Barony which controls all Counties within a Thanedom, only the Baron shall be given the title of Thane and so forth.Landsraad Votes:a) The Landsraad shall consist of the Greater Nobility of Shirerothb) Each Greater Noble shall be granted one vote for each County under his rule.c) Each Greater Noble shall be granted one vote for each Barony under his rule.d) Each Greater Noble shall be granted one vote for each Duchy under his rule.e) Each Greater Noble shall be granted one vote for each County under his rule in excess of the first in any given Thanedom.Marriage and Joint Nobility:a) Joint Nobility shall be established with the contractual Marriage of Nobles.b) Nobles who share Joint Nobility may act as Nobles of each others' Fiefdoms, with restrictions as defined within their Marriage contract.My suggestion for initial Thanedoms as they would be given by the current map of Shireroth:The Thanedom of Elwynn, consisting of all counties within continental Elwynn and Hyperborea, that is, classical Elwynn.The Thanedom of Brookshire, consisting of all counties within the Shirelands South of the Elwynn river, that is, classical Brookshire.The Thanedom of Goldshire, consisting of all counties within the Shirelands East of the Elwynn river, that is, classical Goldshire.The Thanedom of Lothlaria, consisting of all counties within Lothlaria, Lac Glacei, Cognito, and Jaris, that is, classical Lothlaria.The Thanedom of Yardistan, consisting of Yardistan, Amity, Mirioth, So-Sara, and Mar-Sara, that is, classical Yardistan.The Thanedom of the Kitanus Fields, consisting of Kitanus, North Nova Dalmacija, South Nova Dalmacija, Old Hallucination, Blackrock Nua, and Lesser Attera.The Thanedom of Kildare, consisting of Schlangen, Vervollkommnung, New Jasonia, Gong Li, Raynor, and Norfolk.The Thanedom of Muad'Dib, consisting of Naudia'Diva, Benacia, Florencia, Greater Automatica, and Lesser Automatica.I also that all Thanes be given some sort of honourary power in Shireroth, such as automatically being Imperial Advisors. Also possible would be that Thanes be given tiebreaker votes in the Landsraad to represent the unified power they represent.High Thanes are going to be so damned difficult to find that I think they should be automatically be given something huge like a seat in Justice. This would be immediately represented by the Kaiser being the highest of all Thanes, thus supreme Justice. (Note that the determination of Thanedoms is decided by the Kaiser or Justice—if there is a High Thane, while he might try to abuse his power to define Thanedoms, he would always be checked by the Kaiser) Scion of the Mog KaiserEdited by: Gryphon the Pure at: 10/19/05 11:39

[Fax Celestis]

I'm pretty okay with this, but can we do a few things:1. Define exactly (like, in numbers) what qualifies the difference between a Duke and a Baron.2. Explain this lesser nobility getting the Thanedom thing. One would think the larger nobility would get it.3. Use a term other than "Honorary" to describe the tertiary level of nobility? It's potentially confusing. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[Fax Celestis]

Okay, I get it now. But I still think something other than Honorary would be best. Perhaps "High Nobility"? Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[Gryphon the Pure]

Same thing, but edited with the proposals:Quote:Fiefdoms and Nobles:a) Fiefdoms of Shireroth shall consist of Manors, Counties, Baronies, Duchies, Grand Duchies, and Thanedoms, as described in the following sections.b) Nobles of Shireroth shall consist of the Minor Nobility, the Lesser Nobility, and the Greater Nobility, as described in the following sections.Minor Nobility:a) The Minor Nobility of Shireroth shall consist of Mayors and Countsb) A Mayor shall be a Citizen of Shireroth who is still a Minor by Naturalization standards.c) A Count shall be a Citizen of Shireroth who has passed Naturalization standards to be considered a Full Citizen.d) Minor Nobility shall each be granted a plot of land by the Kaiser, known as a County if ruled over by a Count, and a Manor if ruled over by a Mayor.Lesser Nobility:a) The Lesser Nobility of Shireroth shall consist of Barons, Dukes, and Grand Dukesb) A Baron shall be a Count of Shireroth who, in contract with at least one other Count, is granted the authority to rule over the Counties and Manors constituent to the contract. His rule shall be deemed a Barony.c) A Duke shall be a Baron of Shireroth who, in contract with at least one other Baron, is granted the authority to rule over the Baronies, Counties, and Manors constituent to the contract. His rule shall be deemed a Duchy.d) A Grand Duke shall be a Duke of Shireroth who, in contract with at least one other Duke, is granted the authority to rule over the Duchies, Baronies, Counties, and Manors constituent to the contract. His rule shall be deemed a Grand Duchy.Greater Nobility:a) The Greater Nobility of Shireroth shall consist of Thanes and High Thanes.b) Thanedoms shall be established by the Kaiser or Justice as geographically reasonable groupings of Counties whose culture and politics are mutually influenced. These Thanedoms should be named and may or may not overlap.c) A Lesser Noble of Shireroth who controls all Counties within a Thanedom shall be known as the Thane of that Thanedom.d) A Lesser Noble of Shireroth who controls all Counties within more than one Thanedom shall be known as the High Thane of those Thanedoms.e) The title of Thane or High Thane shall be given only to the Lesser Noble of lowest rank who qualifies for the title; if a Duke controls a Barony which controls all Counties within a Thanedom, only the Baron shall be given the title of Thane and so forth.Landsraad Votes:a) The Landsraad shall consist of the Lesser Nobility of Shirerothb) Each Lesser Noble shall be granted one vote for each County under his direct rule.c) Each Lesser Noble shall be granted one vote for each Barony under his direct rule.d) Each Lesser Noble shall be granted one vote for each Duchy under his direct rule.e) The highest ranking Lesser Noble of a Fiefdom shall receive one bonus vote for each county under his rule in excess of the first in any given Thanedom; these votes may be distributed among the Lesser Nobility directly subservient to him, who may each distribute his portion to the Lesser Nobility directly subservient to him, and so forth.Marriage and Joint Nobility:a) Joint Nobility shall be established with the contractual Marriage of Nobles.b) Nobles who share Joint Nobility may act as Nobles of each others' Fiefdoms, with restrictions as defined within their Marriage contract. Scion of the Mog Kaiser

[Gryphon the Pure]

1. Well, in my latest proposal, the difference between a Duke and a Baron is just a leveling matter. A Baron is one who rules multiple counties, and a Duke is one who rules multiple Baronies.2. You may have misread; I describe Greater Nobility as having the ability to become Thanes.3. Yes, this would redefine the classical sense of Honourary Nobility. Thane has always been an honourary title, and the issue of married citizens gaining Nobility is really more of a Joint Nobility matter than that of honours. So I switched them. Scion of the Mog KaiserEdited by: Gryphon the Pure at: 10/19/05 13:07

[Gryphon the Pure]

I realize that in my proposal, the matter of who gets votes is rather vague.We would have to determine whether a Duke gets votes for the counties within his subservient Baronies, thus effectively doubling-up votes within a Greater fiefdom, or whether the Duke should only get votes for each fiefdom under his direct rule.If the latter, I suggest modifying Landsraad Votes: e) to read the following:e) The highest ranking Noble of a Fiefdom shall receive one bonus vote for each county under his rule in excess of the first in any given Thanedom; these votes may be distributed among the Greater Nobility directly subservient to him, who may each distribute his portion to the Greater Nobility directly subservient to him, and so forth.and change "under his rule" to "under his direct rule" for each other clause of that section. Scion of the Mog KaiserEdited by: Gryphon the Pure at: 10/19/05 13:17

[Kaiser Yarad I]

The only thing is that a Duke is not necessarily a Baron who forges an alliance with another Baron.Granted I think it should be made clear that you can't go straight from Count to Grand Duke, but it would be possible for a Baron to get two Counts to ally with him, thus becoming a Duke.I would be all for requiring a fiefdom's existence as a Barony for at least three weeks before becoming a Duchy, and for some very long time before becoming a Grand Duchy, but I don't see why a Duke could not get two Barons to join him in becoming a Grand Duke, and so forth.Aside from that, very nice proposal!

[Gryphon the Pure]

For the record, this was somewhat resolved inchat. So. Anything else?Quote:[18:39:33] Gryphon the Pure: And let us not forget the one declaration that should come before this new Constitution.[18:40:03] Gryphon the Pure: "The Kaiser is the Supreme Noble of Shireroth; His Word is LAW."[18:40:16] Gryphon the Pure: "Bitches" Scion of the Mog Kaiser

[Shyriath]

Whew. It all makes my head hurt, but I think I understand the organization of what you're doing here... And just to be sure I understand the voting thing correctly, let's try out an example. If there's a Duchy consisting of, say, two Baronies and a County (with one Barony having 3 Counties in it and the other having 2)... then the Count would get 1 vote, one Baron would get 3 votes, the other Baron would get 2. The Duke would get 2 votes from the Baronies, plus another 5 votes, from the total Counties under his rule (6) minus one. So the Duke would get 7 total votes. Right?...As for calling it a Constitution... here we come to a point that I'm a little iffy about, unless it's just a name of convenience. Are we thinking about replacing the Charter to do this? As the plan stands, it could probably already fit under the present Charter as Imperial Law... put it up before the Landsraad, redo Chapters II and III of the Lawbook, alter the Landsraad Procedures. Maybe make some Imperial Decrees to close any points of contention in the DecreeBook.That's what the Charter was meant to do, after all... be flexible. Define the bare minimum.

[Fax Celestis]

Allowing everyone a vote sounds suspiciously like Democracy. Ew.I was under the impression that only the head of the subdivision would get to vote, which would create an incentive to band together with people you're like minded with. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[Gryphon the Pure]

P.S. Eoin—I can't count, apparently.Alright, here's the example I gave to His Niftiness the Kaiser:For the purpose of the example, let us say Kildare has eight counties, all within a single Thanedom.The Baronies of Antya, Hallucination, Nova Dalmacija, and Schlangen are formed from these four counties, with Bill, Renee, Austi, and Joseph as Barons. Note there are four other citizens to support these Baronies.Each of the Barons receives two votes, since each Barony contains two counties. These votes are unremovable.Austi and Renee contract to form the Duchy of Kitanus, with Renee as Duchess. Bill and Joseph contract to form the Dutchy of Apollonia, with Joseph as Duke.Renee and Joseph each receive two additional votes for the two Baronies over which they each rule. These votes are unremovable.Joseph and Renee contract to form the Grand Duchy of Kildare, with Renee as Duchess.Renee receives two additional votes for the two Duchies over which she rules. These votes are unremovable.Vote counts are as follows:Bill (2):- 2 Votes for the Barony of AntyaAusti (2):- 2 Votes for the Barony of Nova DalmacijaJoseph (4):- 2 Votes for the Barony of Schlangen- 2 Votes for the Duchy of ApolloniaRenee (6):- 2 Votes for the Barony of Hallucination- 2 Votes for the Duchy of Kitanus- 2 Votes for the Grand Duchy of KildareThe total base voting weight of the Duchy of Kildare in this situation would be 14.Alternatively, all counties of Kildare could have contracted to form the Barony of Kildare, with Renee as Baron. Renee would receive 8 votes for the 8 counties under her influence. While this might work better for Renee as she gets more votes herself, there are actually less votes overall for the Duchy.In either case, Renee would receive an additional 7 bonus votes, being the highest ranking Noble of the Fiefdom, and all 8 counties under her rule being from the same Thanedom.She might keep these all to herself, or she might give some to Joseph or Austi, the two Lesser Nobility under her direct rule. Joseph in turn might hand any portion of those granted him by Renee to Bill, the only Lesser Noble under his direct rule. In the second option, she has to keep them all for herself.Blah.And no, Counts don't get votes 'cause they're not Lesser Nobility. Scion of the Mog Kaiser

[Gryphon the Pure]

Re: Democracy.At -most-, half the citizens of Shireroth would have voting priviledges. Scion of the Mog Kaiser

[Fax Celestis]

But if Shyriath and I contract together to become the Barony of Naudia'Diva and Benacia, we BOTH get two votes? Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[Shyriath]

Ahhhhhh, okay. I understand. No, Fax, I think only one of us would get two votes, because only one of us would be Baron.By the way, concerning editing the Charter to account for this plan... the following should be used to replace the current Article II, Section C...Quote:Section C: Members of the Landsraad.The Landsraad shall consist of the Nobles of Shireroth. Nobles may pick their own successor from among those eligible by birthright. Should no heir be available the Kaiser shall appoint the next Noble. The Kaiser has the power to create new Grand Duchies, Duchies and other Sub-Divisions, as he/she sees fit. The Landsraad may remove a Grand Duchy's or DuchyÂ’s seat from the Landsraad, thereby disbanding the Grand Duchy or Duchy completely and redefining the lands as necessary. The Kaiser has the power to reshape the borders of any Grand Duchy, Duchy or other Sub-Division, as he/she sees fit.Only members of the Landsraad have the unfettered right to speak, propose bills, or vote within the limits of the Landsraad procedures in any circumstances. Non-members of the Landsraad may only speak, propose bills, or vote in the Landsraad when permitted to do so by law. Edited by: Shyriath  at: 10/19/05 21:20

[Gryphon the Pure]

I disagree.I think the Kaiser should only be specifically allowed the power to grant Counties to Citizens. (and possibly grant Honourary Nobility, which should hold no legal weight, being but an Honour)All other levels of Nobility should be strictly determined by the contracts between Nobles. INCLUDING the succession of Nobles. It should be among the contracting parties to determine the methods of succession within their fiefdoms, be it by regular election, appointment, terms, or whatever. Scion of the Mog KaiserEdited by: Gryphon the Pure at: 10/19/05 21:35

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Hm, I like Eoin's original idea, I don't so much like Gryphon's application, and I'll have to see if I have the coherence to explain or come up with a better one.First, I don't like the titles Mayors and Counts. The fact that every citizen gets a leadership title, including minors, sounds way too RPGish, as if they're the mayor of some group of fictional people or something. Leadership titles should be given to people who lead. Can I think of better titles? Well, I don't think minors should get land (didn't we get rid of minorcy?) Perhaps the granting of a parcel of land can be the Kaiser's way of saying that he notices you and thinks you're ready to be a full participant in the nation. So someone can immigrate, eventually the Kaiser notices them and thinks they're ready, and then they get their own parcel of land.I know we've used Count before, but both because these new counts will be everybody and because Count really is a very high noble title in its usual usage, I suggest a different title for people who just hold land. Do I have a suggestion? How about stadtholder? Yes, it's an old Dutch word that would likely confuse many people, but so is "Landsraad". And it's nice and to the point; a direct translation of "person who's governing land". Not too fancy, but not too boring either, and continues Shireroth's tradition of flirting with a German culture but never actually getting there.I like Barons and Dukes, of course. I don't know why you added Grand Dukes in. It might be useful if we get hundreds of new people, but under our current system I can't imagine there being more than one or at most two, which is kind of boring and seems to expand the noble hierarchy for no reason. It would also be VERY awkward if we had only one person to achieve the rank of Grand Duke. It seems hard not to imagine they'd get pretensions and start trying to outshine the Kaiser, which wouldn't do at all. The whole Thanedom system seems very inelegant, especially since if I read it correctly you would have someone who's both a Duke and a Thane, or both a Baron and a High Thane. Further, it would be confusing rankwise to have Person A and B, where Person A controls more Baronies than B, but person B is a Thane. Who's on top? You can't have a feudal system without it being easy to keep score! It gives excessive power to one count - after all, if he leaves the Thanedom, it's not a full Thanedom anymore. We shouldn't necessarily be encouraging keeping exactly our current fiefdoms. We should be encouraging some set of contiguous fiefdoms or other. It's also just so...artificial...and ugly.How about this? We designate the estate of the ruling noble of the fiefdom the "capital". We then assign votes differently based on estates contiguous or not contiguous with the capital (an estate is contiguous if and only if it either touches the capital or touches another estate that touches the capital in the same fiefdom. Does that make sense or should I rephrase it?) For example:Each estate has four potential votes. No one can use potential votes until they become actual votes.The first level fiefdom it joins gets one actual vote (which of course goes to the noble rather than the stadtholder). This rises to two if the estate is contiguous with the capital. Once it joins a second level fiefdom, the Duke gets four potential votes (rising to five if the estate is contiguous with the rest of the fiefdom).This is probably as clear as mud right now, so let me give an example. I'm stadtholder of Hyperborea. Eoin is stadtholder of Volsaarn, which is right next to it. Ric is stadtholder of Cimmeria, which is also contiguous to Hyperborea. Joseph is stadtholder of Schlangen, which is way far away.Example I: Ric, Joseph and I come together under to form the Barony of Examplestan, with me as Baron. Because I am Baron, Hyperborea is the capital. Hyperborea and Cimmeria each give two votes, because they're contiguous with the capital, and Schlangen only gives one vote, because it's not. I have five votes, and wish I had gone with a contiguous estate instead.Example II: This time, Ric, Eoin, and I decide to come together to form the Barony of Example, with me as Baron. Each of the three estates contributes two votes, one because it's part of a Barony and one extra because it's contiguous. I have six votes.Example III: Ric, Eoin, and I have our nice contiguous Barony with six votes. Duke Osmose invites us to join the Duchy of Yardistan, which is contiguous to us. Suddenly, each of our estates produces four votes - one by default, one because we're a contiguous Barony, and two because we're in a Duchy. Osmose gets twelve votes from us, some of which he may distribute back to me, and some of which he may keep. In this way, he could choose to give me seven votes and keep two. Thus, by forming a Duchy, I have actually come out ahead in my vote count, which gives me an incentive to do it, and he of course has a great incentive.Example IV: Ric, Eoin, and I have our nice contiguous Barony with six votes. Duke Fax invites us to join the Duchy of Brookshire, which is contiguous to us. Suddenly, each of our estates produces five votes - one by default, one because we're a contiguous Barony, two because we're in a Duchy, one because it's a contiguous Duchy. Duke Fax gets fifteen votes from us and is now vote-rich. Everyone parties.Example V: I hate Ric and Eoin and don't want to form any Barony with them or anyone else. I join Duke Fax's dominions in Brookshire directly, to which I am contiguous. Hyperborea now gives Fax two votes - one because it's in a fiefdom, and one because it's contiguous with it. I don't get to vote or anything, but at least I answer only to Fax and don't have to deal with those Ric and Eoin people.Fun fact: Change "giving votes" to "paying tribute" and "votes" to "erb" and you have a working economy ready to go.So, a summary of my proposals, most of which are independent of one another:1) Don't give minors land until they prove themselves2) Stadtholders instead of counts or mayors3) No grand dukes4) Encourage contiguous fiefdoms instead os specific thanedoms5) Sneaky potential segway into economic system

[Fax Celestis]

Good. I was worried about the "Everyone having a vote" thing.Actually, Eoin and I were talking, and it came up about what would happen if someone else yelled "DIBS" for Naudia'Diva before I did.I think the Kaiser (or an appointee) taking care of that solves that nicely. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[Gryphon the Pure]

I'm not sure if I've already mentioned it, but I think the Thanedoms I reccommended should be at least "Honouary Thanedoms", even if not functional Thanedoms. The title of Honouary Thane should be given to the father Thane of the Honouary Thanedom, those are:Erik Metzler, Honourary Thane of BrookshireJessica Doran, Honourary Thane of GoldshireSteve Musal, Honourary Thane of the Kitanus FieldsPatrick Foley, Honourary Thane of KildareJames Raine, Honourary Thane of Muad'DibScott Alexander, Honourary Thane of ElwynnNick du Grifos, Honourary Thane of YardistanMatthew McIvor, Honourary Thane of LothlariaThese would be purely honourary titles, with no legal weight Scion of the Mog Kaiser

[Fax Celestis]

I'm all for it, but stop using "Muad'Dib." It's a copyrighted name, which is the entire reason we changed it to Naudia'Diva to begin with.If you'd prefer a Horjinic name for the Thanedom, I can provide one: Naujin'Divak, or the Rainbow Isles. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk