Feudalism Revamped..

[Gryphon the Pure]

Again, Scott, that brings up the problem of Vervollkommnung having a natural political advantage over every other quote-enquote estate on account of its five borders.Also, we've always considered the Nobility of Shireroth to have fictional underlings numbering in higher powers of ten than our physical population has ever reached. There's nothing wrong with letting everyone else in Shireroth pretend the same, especially if it has no real effect on the"1) Don't give minors land until they prove themselves"Already covered. The Manors given to Minors do not become legal counties (and thus have no weight) until the Minors are Naturalized. All the better if MiniImNat got rid of the definition of a Minor, since it is then left to the Kaiser's determination who deserves a County.Also, if I understand correctly, the original purpose of our Kaiser's proposal was to allow every Citizen of Shireroth the oppotunity to develop culture in his own personal Niche of Shireroth. I think that's a very important for the growth of the Nation as a whole that we respect every Citizen with at least this bare minimum."2) Stadtholders instead of counts or mayors"Personally, I am in firm opposition to adding any more names than are necessary. I only added Grand Duchy because James suggested it, our Kaiser seemed to approve, it seems reasonable that we should be able to have three levels of voting Nobility in the near future if we are to expand at all, and most importantly, it's been done before. There is no need to create a level of Nobility functionally equivalent to our current Counties with a new and confusing name, especially such a tongue-twister as "Stadtholders". My ignorance of foreign languages aside, Counts should do fine."3) No grand dukes"See above. There's no real reason to exclude them, and I feel confident that there will come a time when multiple Dukes wish to contract into something... say, Grander. Without the Grand Duke mechanic, they'll be stuck."4) Encourage contiguous fiefdoms instead os specific thanedoms"As I said before, the reason I would prefer Thanedoms to land contiguity is that it creates a heirarchy by geography among quote-enquote estates that encourages favouritism rather than the merit-based organization of a cooperative feudal system.As for the Lesser/Greater Nobility thing, it does get a bit confusing, but that's where the literal difference between a Thane and a Duke/Baron comes in. A Thane is a military leader, one who can unite an entire people beneath his command. A Duke/Baron is a political leader, one who can command an entire people to unite : pReally, what it comes down to is that the Thanes would be the functional equivalent of the OBC/IAC/Shirithian Elders/etc. They may not have as much legal power as a Grand Duke, but people know to trust them. Take for example, Erik's foray into the common population, as Count of Monte Crisco. While his actual legal influence was slim to nil, people would still come to him for advice, and even if they didn't, he sure as hell would give it, and people would more often than not accept it.In essence, the path of the Lesser Nobility terminates at the Kaisership, and the path of the Greater Nobility terminates at the Erikship : p"5) Sneaky potential segway into economic system"I completely agree. Tithes, tributes, taxes, and such should be an integral part of a feudal contract. Also possible would be a sneaky potential segway into more simulationist political culture; if there was a divided fiefdom, say, the Barony of Samplestan, comprising Schlangen and Raynor, it might be possible that if Gong Li was pissed off at the Baron of Samplestan, it could impose a trade barrier between Schlangen and Raynor, enforced by its strong navy. I don't know what sort of consequences such embargos or whatever might have, but it would be an interesting aspect to explore for interFiefdom feuds. Scion of the Mog Kaiser

[Gryphon the Pure]

Quote:I'm all for it, but stop using "Muad'Dib." It's a copyrighted name, which is the entire reason we changed it to Naudia'Diva to begin with.Wait-really? I always thought that it was because the syllables used to pronounce it didn't exist in Horjinic. I don't think anyone can claim copyright infringement on the use of a name, especially not anymore than the use of a graphic, say, the current background for Shireroth and just about everything ever posted in JASO. I'm pretty sure names are protected from copyright in free-use policies unless exploited for monetary gain, in which case there would have to be a Trademark issue, rather than Copyright... and I'm pretty sure the author of Dune didn't take bother to trademark names, nor would we ever exploit a Thanedom in Shireroth for monetary gain (and if we ever did, it would most definitely be once we declared our independence, thus it would be to our own determination whether Trademarks would hold weight in Shireroth). Plus, if we did, I think we'd get called on more blatant references like Brookshire and Elwynn first.The point of the honourary Thanedoms is to honour the forefathers of Shireroth more than anything else, though—so I guess it's up to you what Fiefdom by which you would wish to be remembered. All to the Kaiser, of course. Scion of the Mog Kaiser

[Fax Celestis]

Muad'Dib is a bit more noticeable than Elwynn, if you ask me, not to mention that the island wasn't even originally named "Muad'Dib". It was named something remarkably similar, but different enough that it was noticeable. I changed it to Muad'Dib when I became its' Count. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[Gryphon the Pure]

Fair enough. Mo'Adib, then, for the preservation of history? Scion of the Mog Kaiser

[Fax Celestis]

I'd still rather my "pet Thanedom" actually be named for something I did, not for historical purposes sake. It's not like anyone lived there before me anyway. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[Gryphon the Pure]

Well, the idea of Honourary Thanedoms is to preserve the history of Shireroth's former feudal system.By which I mean the Six original Duchies, Brookshire, Goldshire, Kildare, Elwynn, Yardistan, and Lothlaria. Maybe Jaris, maybe Straylight... but it cuts up more nicely the way I suggested. If you'd rather knock off Muad'Dib and take Honourary Thaneship of Kildare, that would be fine with me. Then maybe we could put those islands into Straylight or something... hmm.Again, only a suggestion, and really not what I would choose for -actual- Thanedoms. Scion of the Mog Kaiser

[Fax Celestis]

I'd rather rename Muad'Dib to the Thanedom of Naudia'Diva, but you know. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[Kaiser Yarad I]

Alright, Scott, I see where you're coming from (it's over there). Thanks for commenting, by the way.Alright, Mayors aren't going to work, that's fairly obvious. I've decided to get rid of that, and just have Commoners and Counts at the lowest two rungs. Eliminate the minorcy period altogether, as often the MINT would just forget, and since the Kaiser has to allocate Counties anyway he might as well do so once the Commoners are nice and settled in, not when they're still minors and playing around in Manors.I don't much like the concept of Stadtholders, though. It's for the simple reason that it's a new word. The important factor in this whole scheme is that we use traditional aspects of the Shirerithian feudal system, even resurrecting old titles such as Thane is better to my mind than devising a new one, not to mention one which will get horrifically misspelled (I can just see it now).As for the whole issue of territorial contiguousity (phew), I think that the idea of regions is better than any "the Counties touch" idea, because as the good Dutch says, Counties such as Vervollkommnung would have an unfair advantage over, say, Madeupburg, which borders on only two other Counties, being a coastal County. While it would be politically advantageous to get a County with a "good location", I'd really rather that we try to cultivate some kind of regional pride, and have people build identities for themselves and for their Thanedoms.I would hope that the issue of the economy has been at the back of all of our minds during this discussion. Obviously this would be the perfect time to phase some kind of economic system in, starting right at the top of the strata with the nobility. I would request, though, that any plans devised not deal with simulated economy, unless anyone has an especially good idea for that sort of thing..I think we're moving towards a resolution here, we just need to get the Thanedoms sorted out *switches over*

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Why don't we move this thread somewhere public?

[Fax Celestis]

Are you kidding? Do you know how much criticism and alteration it would get? Much better to give them a finished product. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Well, the way I see it, there are two possibilities:1) Their criticism is stupid. In which case we, and more specifically the Kaiser, ignores it.2) They come up with some really good points that we didn't think of. We manage to incorporate them at an early stage instead of throwing out lots of work. By "give them a final proposal" do you mean that the first they know of it will be when the Kaiser decrees it or the Landsraad votes on it? Or just that you want them to see the proposal after we're finished writing it? In the first case, that would just be mean and denying everyone except us any input into probably the most important change in Shireroth this year. We've never been democratic, but we've always been good at at least pretending to listen to the common peoples' ideas, not to mention those Dukes and Barons who aren't advisors. In the second case, then if they have suggestions we have to edit a final proposal rather than just incorporating them in at an early stage.

[Fax Celestis]

The thing with putting this before the general public is that, like stuff put before the Landsraad, nothing will ever come of it. People will edit and change it to the point where its' a legislative mess, and we'll have yet another form of red tape.The original purpose of the IAC is to advise the Kaiser as to his next course of action. We're not here to advise the populous; rather, we're here to advise the Kaiser as to how to lead the nation. And that's the Kaiser's job, anyway: lead the nation. We're simply here to help. If that were the populous' place, they'd be in here too.Yes, I'm being elitist. But there's a reason we're the elite. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[Scott of Hyperborea]

I'm all for elitism, but no, there really is no reason we're the elite. Do you think that Osmose isn't smart enough to have equally good input as us into this? What about Foghorn? Hypatia? This is a HUGE change, although I think it's a good one, and everyone should be able to take a look at it and express their opinion before it's made law. Or else what happens if all the nobles in Shireroth except us hate it?

[Kaiser Yarad I]

Just for the record, it was my intention to make this public once I got a more cemented proposal than I'd already gotten (it has been significantly improved by this process already, I feel) so as to prevent people absolutely hating it.I wouldn't make the mistake (and it is a mistake) of just submitting it to the Landsraad, which would result in lots of stupid ideas being put in with myself having next to no control (apart from veto).However, I think that the Front Gate will play host to a debate on this issue, once we have a good solid proposal. Needless to say, stupid criticism will be ignored.

[Fax Celestis]

Just sayin', the Kaiser put it HERE for a reason, not anywhere else.There was something that I thought we were missing...THAT's it.Do uncontracted Counts get a Landsraad voice? What about a forum? And who gets forums? Because having just everyone who asks for one is going to make my job LIVING HELL. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink RegigoraaukEdited by: Fax Celestis  at: 10/22/05 12:46

[Kaiser Yarad I]

It was my intention to make a "Noble Commons" forum, where uncontracted Counts could congregate, where alliances could be announced, etc.And yes, every Barony, Duchy and Grand Duchy that gets formed will need a forum.

[Fax Celestis]

Okay.One last thing: I propose that we create a new Ministry for this and modify the Imperial Judex a bit to be able to handle land claim issues.The Kaiser grants people land, the Ministry of Territorial Organization (or whatever we call it) keeps track of territories and who needs forums, etc, and the Judex settles disputes.This would also create a job, a rather high-profile, high-functioning one should this proposal work. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[UEC]

Eoin Said I could be here... 1. You guys do realize this changes the base Territorial Unit of Shireroth from the Duchy to the County.2. As such, instead of the base unit being a duchy and subdividing from there. It becomes the County, and everything is built up from there..3. This will require a very small edit to the Charter, as it has the base territorial unit being the Duchy. But this is an easy fix. just replace the word Duchy in the last section with Sub-division, and such (I'll post the change later)... And as such.. I am warey of Changed to the Charter... I never liked changing it... And when I did I tried to make it minimal.. (though I did do a few large changes now and again... mostly to make it smaller)4. Most of this can be done by Decree. But the Vote distrobution structure will have to go through the Landsraad, as it falls under the category of voting percentages and precedures.5. I more of less support this. but I don't like the Grand-Duchy level. it's just... to big.. At that size we will have basicly created a subnation. Large enough to be it's own force, and large enough to overthrow the Kaiser or Secceed and by doing so dsestroy Shireroth. Duchy should be the largest level atainable. As it stands we have NEVER gone above Duchy. and I don't think we should make room for it. I don't think we will ever need or even want the status of Grand-Duchy.6. I proly got more... But Later. E. Metzler (UEC)Duke of Brookshire"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSClicky Clicky..., Tiss for your own good ya know.

[Fax Celestis]

For one thing, the Grand Duchy requires Kaiserial approval and quite a great deal of people. For another, the chances of it happening are about this big: ||. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[Gryphon the Pure]

Also—if a Grand Duchy is powerful enough to overthrow the Kaiser, why the hell not? Shirithian Kaisers never used to simply abdicate or die and give the throne to an heir—when people didn't like the Kaiser, they'd rebel and take over -- you did it yourself, Erik, several times, might I add... with Aure, Meskan, Mog... hell, there was even a Ducal rebellion ... what, against Rakesh?Have -any- of those rebellions been bad for Shireroth? Okay... the last one is arguable, but that was at the Ducal level anyway. Government is made to change, and y'know why we put the Kaiser in power? Because he's respected by his subjects. If there was someone so respected by his subjects that they would promote him to the level of Grand Duke, why the hell shouldn't he be Kaiser?Okay. Argument for the good of that mechanic aside, I'll place another argument that it would NEVER happen. If a Grand Duke wanted to overthrow Shirithian government and the Kaiser didn't want him to, y'know what? He -couldn't-. The Kaiser has Admin, for one, and can simply remove any moderator priviledges of the rebel (incidentally, this is also a valid argument for Shireroth not to move to PHPBB, because as long as the site and the board are separate, the most any one person who isn't the Kaiser can hijack is half the nation). Also, having supreme executive power, the Kaiser can decree the Grand Duke into the fucking -dirt-.So basically, any fears of rebellion are either unfounded or unreasonable. Irrespectively.

[UEC]

Accually.. the ONLY sucessful rebellion on the Kaiser was mog.... and that's cause JAmes and I planned it. Before that there were NOT rebellion. Not again Aure.. (she just paniced and fled the nation because she couldn't handle the stress... or something..)... Meskan simply vanished so Jadie took over as his wife.Before the Heir system I was always Kaiser.. lest I had someone do it for me temperarily.. ie.. No rebellions.You all keep saying the grand Duchy will never get used.. so why have it? Having a subdivision that large will be nothing but problems.. all the Duchies and less that remain will feel overwhelmed... and.. it'll just make problems.. and if you say,, that the kaiser doesn't have to allow it.. than why have it at all? It's to large.. and it's pointless. I more or less support this proposal. My only problems are 1. That Grand-Duchies are too big or are pointless.2. That it's implimented correctly. This is my biggest concern. That the charter is touched as LITTLE as possible(if at all), that laws go through the proper places..etc. And are put in the proper places... 3. Thanedoms look pointless too... But I don't really care. More paperwork for someone else... poor Prætor...4. That you guys realize just how large a change this is... as it completly redoes the territorial system of Shireroth. (which has proly needed revisiting for a while... but no one got around to it... ) You need to be sure to explore ALL aspects that this change will influence, no matter how remote they may seem. E. Metzler (UEC)Duke of Brookshire"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSClicky Clicky..., Tiss for your own good ya know.

[UEC]

I also point out that the Kaiser isn't a popularly elected position...I see NOTHING but trouble coming from Grand-Duchies. NOTHING. If they get used at all, and if they don't. They are pointless.I see them as just a way for some power hungry person to usurp the thrown. People who WANT power shouldn't have it. If someone desirves the Kaisership, they should go through the traditional channels, earn it, prove they can handle it and won't be inept, or just out for their own power. E. Metzler (UEC)Duke of Brookshire"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSClicky Clicky..., Tiss for your own good ya know.

[Fax Celestis]

Alright, so axe the Grand Duchy. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[UEC]

Ok.. than I have no objects to what is on the table... I mostly care about how it is implimented... E. Metzler (UEC)Duke of Brookshire"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSClicky Clicky..., Tiss for your own good ya know.

[UEC]

On a random side note.. for some reason I think it would be cool to have Viscounties.. Basic.. if two people wanna band together but not make a Barony.... E. Metzler (UEC)Duke of Brookshire"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSClicky Clicky..., Tiss for your own good ya know.

[Gryphon the Pure]

You mean the same thing as Joint Nobility?I wouldn't be object to expanding the definition for that...

[Fax Celestis]

Okay. So does someone want to write up a proposal to put up for discussion? I think Eoin should do it, considering that it was his original idea, but Joe's high level of input would make him a candidate as well. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[UEC]

Not really joint nobility.It would still be below the Barony...Maybe I'm just suggesting another level before Barony...What are the numbers required for Baronies and Duchies? E. Metzler (UEC)Duke of Brookshire"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSClicky Clicky..., Tiss for your own good ya know.

[Fax Celestis]

2 to 3 citizens: Barony4 and above: Duchy Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[UEC]

1 makes a county2 make a viscounty (or whatever.. )3 makes a barony5 makes a Duchystagger them a bit. if that makes sense... Add more optional lower levels.. E. Metzler (UEC)Duke of Brookshire"Never use a BOO/\/\ist as a diplomat" -- GSClicky Clicky..., Tiss for your own good ya know.