FHA Issues

[Kaiser Yarad I]

It's obvious to me that there is something wrong with the current way fiefdoms work, perhaps with the way they have always worked. While it may transpire through discussion that this is just a fact of Shirerithian life, I'd like to consider every workable alternative to our current system, which seems to allow for inactivity on a grand scale.The main problem is that the fiefdoms have always been plagued with inactivity, and that the propagation of baronies just exacerbates this problem.A simple solution would be to prohibit the formation of baronies, but this would inhibit cultural development, as having your own forum to work in grants a feeling of free rein where creativity is concerned, and the individual histories and cultures of the Baronies are often quite interesting.Another solution would be to put down legislation involving activity minima for baronies to continue existing, but that would require us to set down all kinds of checks and balances, and it would really take too much effort. Also, activity requirements often just breed token activity, which no-one wants, and which lends a desperate air to any forum.As far as the FHA is involved, I think the section governing how subdivisions can be formed and regulated with regards to population requirements are sensible enough in theory, but in practice they seem to lead to the problems I have outlined.The problem with the FHA is that there is so much mixed feeling over what it sets out to do, that once it goes through the Landsraad what emerges is often a very different beast to what goes in. If we came up with a better solution, my intention would be to decree it into existence, and damn the dissenters.So, what do you all think?

[Shyriath]

I dunno. The idea I keep getting is that a Barony should be allowed to continue its existence if it keeps at least two citizens who are active contributors to its local culture (rather than, say, in the case of Benacia, one citizen who thinks up most of everything by himself). The problem is, it's a rather subjective judgement, and it would likely also suffer from the "activity requirement" problem you already mentioned...

[Gryphon Avocatio]

I think they could be done away with completely. But that would make people too unhappy.You may want to freeze the further creation of any fifedoms. This may not help the current ones directly, but it could slow down the over-ambitious from distracting activity from other already active baronies.You may also want to limit the number of Baronies a Duchy an have by some means other than population. I don't know how many each Duchy has, but given the avererage activity of the baronies, one each is a reasonable limit.The fifedoms are generally flawed anyway. It is definitely problematic that a Duke has no way of enforcing any laws in their duchy (though I only noticed this problem when I banned Jasonian from Yardistan and he ignored me and I had no recourse ebcause the Kaiser wouldn't back me).Overall, Baronies are nothing but title inflation. But getting rid of them would be too extreme. I think we should definitely review the various criteria for the baronies. HEY EVERYONE! NICK'S GONE! LET'S CHANGE ALL THE LAWS AND THE FORUM COLORS WHILE WE STILL CAN! - Scott

[Kaiser Yarad I]

I've been thinking this over, and I'm not sure how to proceed with any kind of reduction or change in Barony status.For one thing, the reward of a fiefdom is an intrinsic tradition of Shireroth. What did Scott offer when the task was given to people of training in new citizens? Answer: a Barony. Admittedly he went the completely wrong way about this, but the sentiment was still there.What incentive was offered at one stage to any nations willing to join Shireroth? Duchies and Baronies. There's also the whole link to having a say in the Landsraad. It's difficult given the specific type of feudal system we have, where any Barony is inevitably going to be subsidiary to a Duchy and will therefore be either a hindrance to activity in the parent fiefdom or be inactive altogether.An idea would be to divorce Baronies from Duchies altogether. Perhaps we could have different strati of fiefdoms instead. Depending on how many active citizens each fiefdom had, the feudal lord would receive a different noble title and concurrent votes in the Landsraad and perhaps monetary benefits. This might be too radical, however, and it would have to involve some redrawing of the territorial map, and would make all nobles answerable only to the Kaiser. If we did this, however, I think it would both make the Landsraad more active and a stronger entity in the Imperial Republic.But perhaps this is too radical a change. Some further exploration of this idea would be good, though..

[Fax Celestis]

Part of the thing with Baronies is that they're sort of "training Duchies".Perhaps if Baronies were land granted by the Kaiser, and inclusive of citizens within that territory, but not subordinate to a Duke, making them a sort of Miniduke? Of course, they'd get less Landsraad votes than a Duke, but that's an idea. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[Gryphon the Pure]

I could support that sort of change. Gryphon the Pure- Shirithian Elder - Dutch of Kildare - Minister of the Interior - High Priest of Apostrophe aka Grammar Fuhrer - Director of the Shirithian Census - Imperial Advisor -Scripts not allowedq=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);Scripts not allowedq=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);Scripts not allowedq=parseInt(Math.random()*gryphSig.length);q=(isNaN(q))?0:q;document.write(gryphSig[q]);

[Kaiser Yarad I]

If Baronies are "training Duchies", as you say, Fax, can we realistically say that in the current state of affairs they are achieving their full potential? I don't think so. The fate of most of the recent Baronies to have appeared is to become Counties again in a very short while, due to either chronic activity, frustration or just lack of interest on the Baron's part, and lack of participation from the "bolster citizens" zie brings along to flesh out his application to his Baron.The problem with there being different strata of fiefdoms instead of inner subdivisions gaining a measure of autonomy is that it would have to involve many more citizens than we currently have. Take a look at Attera's most recent feudal version. In it, nobles would be granted rewards for fulfilling various tasks, recruiting citizens, etcetera. A good idea in theory, but in practice the Solomonic Empire hasn't been a very active place for a few years now. I don't know that we have the number of citizens required to have a "build from scratch" feudal system.Actually, it could work. Here's the idea:1: Everyone starts off with a County. The minimum amount of citizens needed to form a Barony is now three.2: Counts have a choice. Either align with other Counts and form Baronies and become subsidiary to a Baron, who could be rotated on a regular basis if chosen, or recruit actively to forward their own County's cause. Admittedly these two are the same action, since any new citizens would automatically be Counts themselves, but there's obviously a difference in intent, no?3: Now what we have is a system where there are some Counties and some Baronies. Baronies are granted their own forum, whereas all Counts have to do their recruiting and County activities in a forum called the Noble Commons or something of the sort. Now, to become a Duchy, five citizens are required. Obviously Baronies can now merge, perhaps with the aid of a County, to become full-fledged Duchies. This gives the Counts a bit of political leverage to, which is how we come to Step 4.4: The Landsraad would be pretty much the same. Barons would have less votes than Dukes, and Counts no votes at all. And this is where, I think, this system could work well. With the new criteria, there would be more Barons than Dukes, at first anyway. It wouldn't be impossible, but it could be more difficult for any particular lobby group to hold power over the Landsraad. I'm not sure myself just exactly how this could be worked out, but I'll see..So what do ye think?

[Fax Celestis]

Interesting. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[Kaiser Yarad I]

Well that's a start

[Kaiser Yarad I]

As for enforcing laws in Duchies, that's another sphere altogether. I believe that the system of autonomy in some respects should probably still be allowed, up to a certain point. I can't exactly remember the Jarvey Affair, but keeping someone out of one forum isn't going to work. I generally despise legal systems, but I think if one were made to exist it would be more effective to assemble a system of bye-laws, which affect the citizens of that fiefdom and that fiefdom only. For instance, Yardistanis might not be allowed wear furry hats on a Morsday. If Paulie the Yardistani decides to wear a furry hat on a Morsday, he is sent to Imperial Court, but treated under Yardistani law, perhaps by a special Yardistani attaché to the court...But that's all conjecture, and not really important to this discussion (but is is interesting...).

[Fax Celestis]

The one problem I see with your proposal is that it changes the whole feudal structure of Shireroth, and not many people here are that welcome to change, especially in the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" sort of things--regardless of whether or not our subdivision system is in need of fixing, there are those who think it's fine.To be honest, I don't know if it CAN be fixed, or even if its worth the effort. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[Kaiser Yarad I]

Of course there's that point. This would be quite a radical change. But my thought is that the feudal system is broken, if only a little. But what I would like to discuss here is whether this idea would work, rather than if it would be accepted..

[Kaiser Yarad I]

Now for the part you might find objectionable, as it could ruffle up the status quo a good bit: everyone will become Counts under the new system.Granted, those people who have proven themselves to be good, responsible leaders should be able to rustle up enough support for themselves to restore their old Duchies almost immediately, but as for restoring activity to the fiefdoms, I think this might be a step forward.Would it be possible to integrate something into the immigration form that shows a list of available Counties? We could have links to County websites which will have the assembled historial information of all those who've bothered to colonise them, or at least a highlighted section of the map indicating where they are geographically. Thus when a new citizen arrives we would already know where they are Count or Countess of, and this might help spark interest from people who are inclined to join and not much else.

[Fax Celestis]

We could, potentially, but it would require us to keep things very up-to-date, as well as (pretty much) require us to lose the forum application and go with the website-based one. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[Fax Celestis]

Shyriath and I may have come up with an interesting way to defeat the bothers of both economy and activity in one fell swoop:Quote:Fax Celestis: http://www.gaiaonline.comShyriathDragon: I suppose I should've guessed that. *Has a look*Fax Celestis: they have a thriving economyFax Celestis: based upon time spent on the boards, posts made, length of said posts, and a casino.ShyriathDragon: Nifty.Fax Celestis: Yes.Fax Celestis: The other half o f the economy (the demand end) is supplied also by the casino, and by apparently a rather large fashion trade.Fax Celestis: look at hte last post: http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/...amp; ... iathDragon: Heh.Fax Celestis: I'm curious if we can set up something similar in an economy in Shireroth, but what would we use instead of the fashion trade?ShyriathDragon: Hmmmm. Not sure.... there's always Scott's vote-buying idea...Fax Celestis: I don't know how I feel about that thoughShyriathDragon: Hmmmm. I'm not sure what else there is that people would be willing to post, get their money, and pay for...Fax Celestis: //nodShyriathDragon: Maybe noble titles, but if we went that way we'd probably have to attach privileges to the titles, and then it'd likely be just another version of the vote-buying idea...Fax Celestis: Hm.Fax Celestis: Well, we could use it to solve our Baronial problem...you have to buy the land from your Duke and your title from the Kaiser, and pay rent on it.ShyriathDragon: Hmmmmmmm.Fax Celestis: well, tax, not rent, but you see what I'm saying.ShyriathDragon: *Nods* I think that might work well...Fax Celestis: Because you'd HAVE to be active in order to maintain a baronyShyriathDragon: In additional to the financial investment, would the number-of-citizens requirement for a Barony still stand as well?Fax Celestis: I would actually raise it.Fax Celestis: Or perhaps proportionally prorate the amount according to your number-of-citizens.Fax Celestis: 100e/m for 1 citizen, 75e/m/c for two, 50e/m/c for three, etc.Fax Celestis: that's erb/month/citizenFax Celestis: ...which would ease the burden for all the citizens involved, but still net more money for the imperial crown.Fax Celestis: ...which they could then later use as gifts to upstanding citizens, who would then be able to purchase territory/time.Fax Celestis: And the best part is, it's based off an action that everyone already does, so it's not like people have to go out of their way to learn something new/participate.ShyriathDragon: *Nods*Fax Celestis: hmm....Fax Celestis: ideas?ShyriathDragon: Well, since this is going to change the experience of Baron-ing quite a bit, we might want to reexamine the privileges that go with it. If we end up getting a lot of Barons, do they all get Landsraad votes? Baronial fora?Fax Celestis: Baronial fora, yes. Landsraad votes, up to the Duke in the same format we already have.Fax Celestis: But probably for an additional fee.Fax Celestis: 100e/m for a Barony, 150e/m for a vote, 180e/m for two votes, etc.Fax Celestis: I'm making these numbers up, of course.Fax Celestis: ...or those who don't buy votes can be Counts.Fax Celestis: Hm. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[Kaiser Yarad I]

Would that scheme take all the sense of achievement out of being a member of the nobility, though?What I'm personally afraid of with the totally-immersive economy is that the naysayers of Shireroth will take it as a personal slight that we even deign to introduce such a system into what is "their country too", and will become alienated and even more contrary.Associating the nobility with an all-economical system might damage the feudal system we have here. I'm fine with the concept of paying rent/taxes, and paying for extra votes, but I think it takes away some of the edge if we divorce nobility completely from the whole "Kaiser gives people titles" thing....which is what feudalism is, to be fair...

[Fax Celestis]

Oh, i'm not saying that the current system for Dukes is fine, or that the Dukes don't maintain the right to deny citizens the ability to buy either land or votes from them. But instead of a Baron immediately owning a chunk of land and concurrent votes, he's got to buy them from a Duke.Besides, if the naysayers really want to get down to it, there were two kinds of feudal nobility: those that got it because of military might, and those that got it because of financial might. This would simply be opening the field a bit.I mean, potentially if someone wanted to "buy" a Duchy from the Kaiser, why shouldn't they be able to? Of course the Kaiser would set the terms and conditions, as well as basically modify them at whim, but there's really no room for argument.Besides, this style system puts power into the hands of those who are active, not those who have been here a while or those who the Kaiser is good friends with. And to be honest, activity is a far better objective measure than anything else I've been able to come up with.Besides, the main reason that economies have failed in the past is because they require people to change what they're doing already. This would allow them to basically get paid for what they're already doing, which is participating in government. And it can potentially be considered that those who participate in government can get paid a salary by them, much the same as a senator or minister do in modern society. Viatax Sitadi Axdivijink Regigoraauk

[Ari Rahikkala]

Requesting declassification per Declassification act of 3742.