Shireroth

To be added to LB: III.

G. Multiple Titles
1. Supersedence
a. Should one individual be granted multiple titles of nobility only the highest title shall be considered active.
b. If two titles should be of equal rank, a hereditary title shall always supersede a non-hereditary title.
c. Should an active title be removed, revoked or relinquished, the next highest title shall become the active title.
d. All titles not considered the active title shall be considered to be temporarily suspended, though may still be referenced personally.
e. While suspended a title cannot grant any rights or privileges from, or obligation to, the Imperial Government.
f. A suspended title may not be temporarily transfered, nor an emissary assigned for that title.

This solves the multiple title issue. How this will effect Kildare, since they are the one directly effected at this time.
Andreas is Margrave and Baron of House Kildare. The Baron title will be suspended for purposes of the Imperial Government. He'll get the vote of the Margrave, but not of the Baron. He will not be allowed to pass the baron title to Jacobus, unless he actually relinquishes that title to Jake, with all that would mean. (making him Dutch?) He also can't make Jake Emissary of the Baron title.

NAY (5). It seems nonsense to me that you would say to people with non-hereditary titles "Hey, you have a non-hereditary title. That means we love you lots and think you're making an important contribution to Shireroth. So you know what? If you lead a house too, we're going to waste that vote."

Make it so that only hereditary titles can be given emissaryships, and that no person can vote with two titles. Then we still have the same number of voters representing the same votes, it's just more sensible if a non-hereditary happens to be the head of a house. In the case that everyone in the house has a non-hereditary title, that's the only time it would make sense to supersede the non-hereditary title in favour of the hereditary one.

I don't like the idea of one person controlling say, 10 votes. Even if they pass off those votes to an Emissary. It's a mighty concentration of power. How do we know the Emissary isn't just doing what you tell him to do, which is what an Emissary is supposed to do.

This situation comes about because you were not the Dutch, and I honestly wanted your vote and not Jonas' in the Landsraad at the time. So, I gave you the Patrician rank title. Now that you are Dutch, everything is as it should be. Also, Jake is already a noble with two vote, so that would give him 2 sets of votes to cast.

Honestly, I don't think someone should have two title at the same time at all. Not with the current voting layout. I consider this a good solution cause you get to keep the titles, but it won't interfere with voting in the Landsraad. But if you note the wording, you are also protected from any taxes on titles.

Right now Kildare has 3 titles granted to it's members. Held by 2 of it's 4 people. I find that kinda weird. If anything I think that the Margrave title should be changed to Thane and Baron to Duke making Kildare a Major House.

Moirts, AYE (5)

I voted against the multiple titles law because I felt that the issues of voting had not been dealt with beforehand. Now, we have this.

For now, the Duke Kalirion abstains (5).

Since the issue isn't relevant at the moment, I think more thought should be put into the drafting of this bill instead of just throwing something together.

Lakhesis, NAY (1).

As long as 1 person cannot vote with multiple titles worth of votes, I don't care what solution we come up with.

This should be handled in the Procedures, imho.

I won't fight that. But what exactly should be put into them?

"At no point no single person shall hold more than five votes."? What?

You could get around that by giving your left overs to an Emissary.


And how is that not the exactly same thing I said?

Procedures of the Landsraad

B. Votes

1. Each noble of Patrician Rank is allocated 5 votes.
2. Each noble of Equestrian Rank is allocated 2 votes.
3. Each noble of Civitas Rank is allocated 1 vote.
4. Each noble may only vote with one rank active at any time. Should a noble control more than one rank for voting purposes, whether outright or by Emissary, their highest rank shall be considered to be active.
a. A hereditary rank is considered higher than a non-hereditary rank.

H. Emissaries

1. A voting noble may appoint a representative known as an Emissary.
a. Should a noble hold more than one voting title at a time, they may grant one of their voting titles to another person as an Emissary and retain all other voting titles.
2. An Emissary shall be granted the vote and voice of a noble, to represent that noble within the Landsraad.
3. While a noble has an Emissary appointed and active within the Landsraad, said noble may only speak or vote through that Emissary, unless they retain another voting title themself.
4. A noble may temporarily revoke the status of an appointed Emissary for a single debate, at which point the Emissary must retire from the debate without comment.
5. If an Emissary has been forced to retire from a debate by the Noble they represent, they cannot return to the debate, nor may another Emissary be appointed.
6. A noble's Emissary must reside within the subdivision that Noble's House. the Noble resides within or rules.
7. A noble may only have one Emissary appointed at any given time.

What it means:
A person may only vote with one title, whether they control one or many, control it themselves or control it via an Emissary [Erik, your bill merely superseded two titles held by one person, a title is not granted to an emissary so it wouldn't have stopped them controlling two votes].
A person with multiple titles may grant one of their titles to an emissary. If the emissary has another title which is lower, this now supersedes the lower title for the emissary. If they don't, they now vote with that title as per normal. If the original noble has other titles, they can still speak and vote with one of those other titles.
Finally, an emissary must be in the same house as you, not in a subdivision you control (because with the current system, if you guys actually want non-hereditary titles to be able to emissarise, they need to grant it to someone in their house because most non-hereditary title holders thus far have not ruled over other nobles).

It would be worth adding a section to the lawbook which says inactive titles can't be taxed, but I'm not sure how keen you are on the lawbook to refer to the Procedures.

I don't want votes granted to Emissaries in this fashion. You get to work with one title. and one title only. If you have two, then one is set aside an deactivated till you have one again. No emissaries.

I agree, at least for the time being. There are no people at the moment with multiple titles, but it could be used by the Kaiser (in theory) to unduly stack the Landsraad with votes.

Or just as a broken oversight.

Ric, you were right, we should not have allowed multiple titles. I hadn't foreseen the wateringdown of the Landsraad at that time, so I didn't think we would get flooded with titles like we have now.

It doesn't make much sense to have a ban on multiple titles in the LawBook anyhow...

Why not?

And Andreas, if a title is not active it can't have it's votes given to an Emissary. How can you give out votes when votes are a right, and all rights and privileges granted to that title are not available?

Since titles are awarded by the Kaiser who is not bound by the LawBook.

Fair enough.

Fine, Procedures it is. With no argument from me.

I and Erik will support an amendment to the Procedures that
1. disallows one person from casting multiple sets of votes,
2. disallows a person from appointing an emissary for zir subsidiary titles
3. allows the person to chose what title zie wants to be active.

I would support all of those provisions.

How about this:

Procedures B. to be added to as follows:

B. Votes
1. Each noble of Patrician Rank is allocated 5 votes.
2. Each noble of Equestrian Rank is allocated 2 votes.
3. Each noble of Civitas Rank is allocated 1 vote.
4. Anyone with multiple titles of nobility, of whatever rank, must choose only one of them to determine zir Landsraad vote.

Procedures D.4 to be amended as follows:

4. When casting a vote a noble must state the title under which zie chooses to vote, and how many votes zie is casting.

Procedures H. to be added to and amended as follows:

H. Emissaries
1. A voting noble may appoint a representative known as an Emissary.
2. An Emissary shall be granted the vote and voice of a noble, to represent that noble within the Landsraad.
3. A noble's Emissary shall represent a noble only on behalf of the title under which that noble has chosen to vote, and no other, and shall be allotted votes accordingly.
4. While a noble has an Emissary appointed and active within the Landsraad, said noble may only speak or vote through that Emissary.
5. A noble may temporarily revoke the status of an appointed Emissary for a single debate, at which point the Emissary must retire from the debate without comment.
6. If an Emissary has been forced to retire from a debate by the Noble they represent, they cannot return to the debate, nor may another Emissary be appointed.
7. A noble's Emissary must reside within the subdivision that the Noble resides within or rules.
8. A noble may only have one Emissary appointed at any given time.

Epic approval to that Shyriath!

I agree with that.

Will this need a new bill, since it's substantially different from the one proposed?

Yes. I retract my bill. Go ahead and put yours forth.

Done.