LawBook Revision Bill 3934

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Malliki Tosha
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LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Malliki Tosha »

LAWBOOK REVISION BILL

Be it enacted by the Landsraad of the Imperial Republic of Shireroth;

1. That the following sections of the LawBook shall be removed in their entirety:

a. I, A, 2
"2 Landsraad
a. Both male and female nobles of the Landsraad have equal voice in its halls and may vote freely with their allotted votes."

b. II, A, 2
"2. Each Territory may be granted a forum with its flag and a link to its own board."

c. III, D, 1, a
"a. Only the Kaiser may grant a title of Patrician rank."

d. III, D, 2, a
"a. Only the Kaiser may revoke a title of Patrician rank."

e. III, E, 1, c
"c. All Noble are members of the Landsraad, with the privileges and duties enumerated in the Procedures of the Landsraad."

f. III, E, 1, d
"d. A Noble may relinquish all or some of zir powers to the internal institutions or individuals of zir fief. Should a duke remove powers in so far as to not be able to regain them through those powers remaining, only the Kaiser may reinstate the relinquished powers, unilaterally."

g. III, E, 2, a-e
"2. Restrictions
a. No Noble may violate Imperial law.
b. No Noble may conduct significant foreign policy.
c. No Noble may call for the overthrow of the government.
d. No Noble may secede from Shireroth.
e. A Noble's powers affect only zir fief and those within."

h. V, A, 1-4
"A. Impersonating the Kaiser
1. It is against the law to impersonate the Kaiser.
2. Punishment will be upon capture, and may include but is not limited to any of the following:
a. Banning
b. Public ridicule.
c. Both of the above.
3. Justice will be served.
4. It is still legal to impersonate the Kaiser or pretend to the throne of the Kaiser if the real Kaiser says you can. But when the real Kaiser returns pretty much anything can happen, up to and including Civil Rec-war, decapitation of yourself and your lieutenants, the ravishment of your men and women, the burnings of your dwellings and animals, and the merciless slaughter of your supporters."

i. VII, A, 1, a
"a. The Kaiser is the highest body of law and acts as final Arbiter for the nation of Shireroth and the Kaiser shall hold court in the Kaiser's Court forum."

j. VII, B, 3
"3. The Arbiter is not a political appointment, and as such, the position does not grant a say or vote within the Landsraad."

k. VII, B, 4, a
"a. Ministers appointed by the Kaiser are not officers of the Landsraad, nor are Nobles."

l. VII, C, 2, b
"b. Non-citizens can only be brought forth under express permit of the Kaiser."

m. VII, C, 4, b
"b. Possible types of ordeals for crimes of varying levels of severity shall be set by a future act of the Landsraad."

n. VII, C, 5, c
"c. Further restrictions upon pones shall be set by future acts of the Landsraad."

o. VIII, A
"A: Gambling
1. Legalized Gambling
a. Gambling in all forms is legal within the lands of Shireroth.
2. Exceptions to Legalized Gambling
b. Nobles may restrict Gambling within their subdivision as they see fit."

p. VIII, D
"D: Political Parties
1. Prohibition
a. Political parties are banned from Shireroth.
b. Any denizen of Shireroth who creates a Political Party is liable to punishment by the Landsraad and/or Judex.
2. Political Interest Groups
a. Political Interest Groups are a form of political party."

q. VIII, F, 1, b
"b. Disobeying or disregarding a direct order from the Kaiser."

r. VIII, F, 2, a-c
"2. Punishments for Treason may include but are not limited to the following:
a. Complete Exile from the lands of Shireroth.
b. Loss of citizenship.
c. Loss of privileges within the lands of Shireroth."

s. VIII, H
"H: Chickens and Moose
1. Rights of Chickens
a. All hens are free from involuntary egg laying.
b. Roosters will no longer have to wake up at 5:30 in the morning.
c. The Duchy of Yardistan will provide flying lessons for chickens.
2. Other
a. Eat more Chicken.
3. Restrictions on Chickens and other Poultry
a. No chicken, turkey, or giblet may hold an office, except for Chicken Cows.
4. Rights of Moose
a. The hunting of moose shall be illegal.
b. No moose flesh or meat shall be consumed."

t. VIII, J
"J: General Restrictions upon all Denizens of Shireroth.
1. Smoking.
a. All forms of tobacco shall be considered an adictive substance within the lands of Shireroth.
b. No denizen of Shireroth shall make use of smoke tobacco in public while at a Shirerithian Convention.
c. Punishment for violation shall be determined based on severity of violation."

u. VIII, L
"L: Shirerithian External Military Policy
1. Let it be known to all foreign powers that unless they have a specific invitation from Shireroth (or a person legitimately representing Shireroth), or unless a legitimate reason has first been supplied for their presence, foreign troops are not allowed into the nation.
2. Also, foreign troops are expected to be withdrawn from the national borders at the conclusion of whatever event has brought them to the Republic, unless there is provision for a Treaty."

v. IX, C, 2
"2. The Kaiser gives the Minister of Exterior and Landsraad the power to pronounce a nation hostile to the nation of Shireroth. "

w. IX, D, 2
"2. No Shirithian shall reside in more than one city at a time, and in order to change residences, a one day travel time from the time of relocation announced shall be observed. In accordance with this, no Shirithian may reside in more than one residence in a day."

x. X, A
"A: Sectors
1. Recognition of Sectors
a. Shireroth shall not recognize the use of Sectors as a Micronational geographic or cultural subdivision. Nor shall it reside in any sector. Nor shall any duchy or territory be considered a part of ANY sector unless the Duchy or Territory expressly grants permission to be considered in such sector."

y. XIII, G, 2
"2. Each Duke shall be taxed 2000 Erbs each time tax is required."

2. This is just a bit of spring cleaning.
Last edited by Malliki Tosha on Fri May 14, 2010 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Malliki Tosha »

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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Daniel Farewell »

Sorry bout that, was going to edit my post, but deleted it instead. :p

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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Malliki Tosha »

Yardis: Aye
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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Daniel Farewell »

a. I, A, 2

Aye.

b. II, A, 2

Aye.

c. III, D, 1, a

Maybe.

d. III, D, 2, a

Maybe.

e. III, E, 1, c

Aye.

f. III, E, 1, d

Aye

g. III, E, 2, a-e

Aye.

h. V, A, 1-4

Maybe.

i. VII, A, 1, a

Aye.

j. VII, B, 3

Aye.

k. VII, B, 4, a

Maybe.

l. VII, C, 2, b

Aye!!!!!

m. VII, C, 4, b

Dunno.

n. VII, C, 5, c

Aye.

o. VIII, A

Aye.

p. VIII, D

AYE!

q. VIII, F, 1, b

Aye.

r. VIII, F, 2, a-c

Aye.

s. VIII, H

Aye.

t. VIII, J

Yeah.

u. VIII, L

Yes.

v. IX, C, 2

Maybe.

w. IX, D, 2

Probably

x. X, A

Yah.

y. XIII, G, 2

Didn't we vote through this change?

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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Andreas the Wise »

There seems to be a vast amount of change here, some of it important, some of it not, some of it destroying the most quirky parts of the law and most of it making little sense out of context. I'll vote when I've actually got time to trawl through the Lawbook to put a score of references in context.
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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Malliki Tosha »

You might call having laws establishing rights for chicken quirky. I call them retarded. Most of the changes just remove dead weight. Some of them don't.
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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Kaiser Mors VI »

I might line item veto some parts of this. But like Andreas, I'll need to go through it.

The parts where the Kaiser is mentioned, I feel should be kept in to help prevent confusion. While the kaiser CAN do everything, mostly, sometimes it needs to be stated to mention what the Landsraad cannot do. Such as the Landsraad ought not be able to hand out Patrician noble titles.

Also Nobles should be able to hand out powers to their lessers for greater house flexibility and options.


But right now consider the following revisions vetoed, but I hold the option to not veto them if pursueded otherwise, and to change my mind on what I'm not vetoing:

c. III, D, 1, a
"a. Only the Kaiser may grant a title of Patrician rank."

f. III, E, 1, d
"d. A Noble may relinquish all or some of zir powers to the internal institutions or individuals of zir fief. Should a duke remove powers in so far as to not be able to regain them through those powers remaining, only the Kaiser may reinstate the relinquished powers, unilaterally."

u. VIII, L
"L: Shirerithian External Military Policy
1. Let it be known to all foreign powers that unless they have a specific invitation from Shireroth (or a person legitimately representing Shireroth), or unless a legitimate reason has first been supplied for their presence, foreign troops are not allowed into the nation.
2. Also, foreign troops are expected to be withdrawn from the national borders at the conclusion of whatever event has brought them to the Republic, unless there is provision for a Treaty."

x. X, A
"A: Sectors
1. Recognition of Sectors
a. Shireroth shall not recognize the use of Sectors as a Micronational geographic or cultural subdivision. Nor shall it reside in any sector. Nor shall any duchy or territory be considered a part of ANY sector unless the Duchy or Territory expressly grants permission to be considered in such sector."

The rest I either don't object to, or enough to outright veto. And I'm open to comment. I would like some actual reasons for many of these changes though. Some makes sense, old laws, like the tax one.
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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Andreas the Wise »

a. I, A, 2

Remembering some of the arguments regarding gender bias; if we were to remove this section here, we should add a section elsewhere to ensure there is no gender discrimination with regards to nobility (which would thus cover this section). So NAY until something addressing that is presented in the same bill.

b. II, A, 2

Why would we want to remove this? If anything, we should strengthen this provision and say that each territory will be provided with its own subforum and accompanying flag. We can drop the link to its own board bit. Perhaps you might want to change it to read
2. Each Territory may will be granted a subforum with its flag and a link to its own board.
So NAY.

c. III, D, 1, a
d. III, D, 2, a

AYE, on the condition that we also strike all of section III D and the Kaiser put it into the decreebook. It doesn't make sense that the Landsraad should pass a law limiting their own power or granting themselves powers, though it is convenient for the purposes of seeing it all in the one place. The Kaiser should decree these matters.

e. III, E, 1, c

AYE, because it's in the charter (II.c.a)

f. III, E, 1, d

What is the effect of removing this? Does it prevent the Duke from relinquishing powers, or does it remove the reminder that a Duke can give up powers in a way he can't get them back, or does it remove the reminder that a Duke can petition the Kaiser to get his powers back if he's given them up?

g. III, E, 2, a-e

This seems an important part of the lawbook to me (considering that it applies to nobles under Dukes and therefore isn't just a restrictions the Dukes are placing on themselves). So NAY.

h. V, A, 1-4

I seem to recall a lot of arguments regarding the exact wording of this passage. It seems a shame then to remove it on a whim. I'd like to see the reasoning behind removing it before supporting it's removal. So NAY.

i. VII, A, 1, a

While partly shown in the charter, it seems very helpful to have all in one place in the lawbook. So NAY until you show me a good reason to do otherwise.

j. VII, B, 3

AYE, I guess.

k. VII, B, 4, a

AYE

l. VII, C, 2, b

AYE.

m. VII, C, 4, b

AYE on the condition that we do actually set them.

n. VII, C, 5, c

Aye if we also change C, 5, a to:
a. A pone is a writ to move the case to a higher court, any Defendant may file a pone subject to the following restrictions.

o. VIII, A

Aye (assuming Nobles can still restrict it if they want).

p. VIII, D

NAY, and for the record, why hasn't there been a huge uproar in the Front Gate similar to the flag debate yet? I thought people would be rioting in the streets by now. Obviously nobody noticed it in the mass of other things.

q. VIII, F, 1, b

NAY. That's clearly treason.

r. VIII, F, 2, a-c

I'm unsure why we'd remove this. It doesn't limit the Kaiser, sure; but it allows lesser nobles to deal with treason in their territory, and so I'd think it's helpful to keep in. So NAY, but you're welcome to provide actual reasoning why I should change the vote.

s. VIII, H

This is a historical relic. If we removed this, it'd be the first step on being another boring realistic micronation! NAY.

t. VIII, J

ABSTAIN.

u. VIII, L

NAY. This seems important.

v. IX, C, 2

AYE on the assumption that he has (given us that power, that is).

w. IX, D, 2

ABSTAIN. I'm not sure of the reasons for removing it or for including it.

x. X, A

AYE. We're Apollo Sector.

y. XIII, G, 2

What Daniel said.

In short, it would be nice to actually see your reasoning on these changes. A couple are unnecessary (if we're aiming at Lawbook Lite) but most require at least some explanation.
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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Malliki Tosha »

LAWBOOK REVISION BILL

Be it enacted by the Landsraad of the Imperial Republic of Shireroth;

1. That the following sections of the LawBook shall be removed in their entirety:

a. I, A, 2
"2 Landsraad
a. Both male and female nobles of the Landsraad have equal voice in its halls and may vote freely with their allotted votes."

The point in removing this is that it is completely unnecessary.

b. II, A, 2
"2. Each Territory may be granted a forum with its flag and a link to its own board."

Having "may" in laws is bad legislating. Since each territory is formally under the Kaiser, having a provision where they "may" get a forum is unnecessary.

c. III, D, 1, a
"a. Only the Kaiser may grant a title of Patrician rank."

Removing this doesn't mean that the Landsraad can grant Patrician ranks. Section 1 b says that the Landsraad can grant ranks up to Equestrian. The LawBook should only deal with the Landsraad, Ministers and such. Not the powers of the Kaiser.

d. III, D, 2, a
"a. Only the Kaiser may revoke a title of Patrician rank."

Same as above.

e. III, E, 1, c
"c. All Noble are members of the Landsraad, with the privileges and duties enumerated in the Procedures of the Landsraad."

Unnecessary. You can find this in the Procedures and Charter.

f. III, E, 1, d
"d. A Noble may relinquish all or some of zir powers to the internal institutions or individuals of zir fief. Should a duke remove powers in so far as to not be able to regain them through those powers remaining, only the Kaiser may reinstate the relinquished powers, unilaterally."

Unnecessary and confusing. Why do we need this information when III, E, 1, a (I think) says that each noble has complete power within their area?

g. III, E, 2, a-e
"2. Restrictions
a. No Noble may violate Imperial law.
b. No Noble may conduct significant foreign policy.
c. No Noble may call for the overthrow of the government.
d. No Noble may secede from Shireroth.
e. A Noble's powers affect only zir fief and those within."

BAD LEGISLATION!!! You don't make lists with what people can't do, you make lists with what people can do. Having a list saying that nobles can't do this and that is frankly bad legislation. You don't have to specify lists with laws people can't break, since laws are inviolable automatically.

h. V, A, 1-4
"A. Impersonating the Kaiser
1. It is against the law to impersonate the Kaiser.
2. Punishment will be upon capture, and may include but is not limited to any of the following:
a. Banning
b. Public ridicule.
c. Both of the above.
3. Justice will be served.
4. It is still legal to impersonate the Kaiser or pretend to the throne of the Kaiser if the real Kaiser says you can. But when the real Kaiser returns pretty much anything can happen, up to and including Civil Rec-war, decapitation of yourself and your lieutenants, the ravishment of your men and women, the burnings of your dwellings and animals, and the merciless slaughter of your supporters."

I just thought it would be rather fun to remove this.

i. VII, A, 1, a
"a. The Kaiser is the highest body of law and acts as final Arbiter for the nation of Shireroth and the Kaiser shall hold court in the Kaiser's Court forum."

"The Kaiser SHALL"... This information is available in the Charter and is completely unnecessary in the LawBook.

j. VII, B, 3
"3. The Arbiter is not a political appointment, and as such, the position does not grant a say or vote within the Landsraad."

Again with the bad legislation. Perhaps we should specify that denizens, chickens, moose, rats, hats, Americans and Swedes also are not political appointments. You specify WHAT IS, not WHAT ISN'T!

k. VII, B, 4, a
"a. Ministers appointed by the Kaiser are not officers of the Landsraad, nor are Nobles."

See above. Bad legislation.

l. VII, C, 2, b
"b. Non-citizens can only be brought forth under express permit of the Kaiser."

Weird rule.

m. VII, C, 4, b
"b. Possible types of ordeals for crimes of varying levels of severity shall be set by a future act of the Landsraad."

Why are we telling ourselves that we can make future laws? Completely stupid. This is what happens when you move decree text into the LawBook without thinking.

n. VII, C, 5, c
"c. Further restrictions upon pones shall be set by future acts of the Landsraad."

Same as above.

o. VIII, A
"A: Gambling
1. Legalized Gambling
a. Gambling in all forms is legal within the lands of Shireroth.
2. Exceptions to Legalized Gambling
b. Nobles may restrict Gambling within their subdivision as they see fit."

Why do we say that gambling is legal? Everything that is not prohibited is legal.

p. VIII, D
"D: Political Parties
1. Prohibition
a. Political parties are banned from Shireroth.
b. Any denizen of Shireroth who creates a Political Party is liable to punishment by the Landsraad and/or Judex.
2. Political Interest Groups
a. Political Interest Groups are a form of political party."

Fun to remove.

q. VIII, F, 1, b
"b. Disobeying or disregarding a direct order from the Kaiser."

Again, funny.

r. VIII, F, 2, a-c
"2. Punishments for Treason may include but are not limited to the following:
a. Complete Exile from the lands of Shireroth.
b. Loss of citizenship.
c. Loss of privileges within the lands of Shireroth."

"Punishments MAY include but are not limited..." So this is basically a list of possible punishments, but there are others as well. Bad legislation again.

s. VIII, H
"H: Chickens and Moose
1. Rights of Chickens
a. All hens are free from involuntary egg laying.
b. Roosters will no longer have to wake up at 5:30 in the morning.
c. The Duchy of Yardistan will provide flying lessons for chickens.
2. Other
a. Eat more Chicken.
3. Restrictions on Chickens and other Poultry
a. No chicken, turkey, or giblet may hold an office, except for Chicken Cows.
4. Rights of Moose
a. The hunting of moose shall be illegal.
b. No moose flesh or meat shall be consumed."

Retarded.

t. VIII, J
"J: General Restrictions upon all Denizens of Shireroth.
1. Smoking.
a. All forms of tobacco shall be considered an adictive substance within the lands of Shireroth.
b. No denizen of Shireroth shall make use of smoke tobacco in public while at a Shirerithian Convention.
c. Punishment for violation shall be determined based on severity of violation."

Okay?

u. VIII, L
"L: Shirerithian External Military Policy
1. Let it be known to all foreign powers that unless they have a specific invitation from Shireroth (or a person legitimately representing Shireroth), or unless a legitimate reason has first been supplied for their presence, foreign troops are not allowed into the nation.
2. Also, foreign troops are expected to be withdrawn from the national borders at the conclusion of whatever event has brought them to the Republic, unless there is provision for a Treaty."

Looks like it has been moved from a decree to the LawBook. I fail to see why we should put communication with foreign powers in the LawBook.

v. IX, C, 2
"2. The Kaiser gives the Minister of Exterior and Landsraad the power to pronounce a nation hostile to the nation of Shireroth. "

Shouldn't be in the LawBook. This is a communication from the Kaiser to the MiniEx and Landsraad, not a law.

w. IX, D, 2
"2. No Shirithian shall reside in more than one city at a time, and in order to change residences, a one day travel time from the time of relocation announced shall be observed. In accordance with this, no Shirithian may reside in more than one residence in a day."

Stupid.

x. X, A
"A: Sectors
1. Recognition of Sectors
a. Shireroth shall not recognize the use of Sectors as a Micronational geographic or cultural subdivision. Nor shall it reside in any sector. Nor shall any duchy or territory be considered a part of ANY sector unless the Duchy or Territory expressly grants permission to be considered in such sector."

Even more stupid.

y. XIII, G, 2
"2. Each Duke shall be taxed 2000 Erbs each time tax is required."

This was changed by the Kaiser and the law should reflect that.

2. This is just a bit of spring cleaning.[/quote]
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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Kaiser Mors VI »

OKey... in some places you argue that the law should only deal with what "IS" (permissible) and not what isn't. Yet you say the gambling section isn't valid cause if it's not listed it should be considered legal. These statements contradict.

Does the lawbook assume everything is legal unless stated otherwise? Or assume everything is Illegal, unless stated otherwise. If we assume all is legal unless stated otherwise, the gambling section can and should go, but the sections clarifying things must be kept, such as saying that some offices are part of the Landsraad or not (This was a big debate once....). Butt if everything is illegal unless stated otherwise, the gambling section needs to stay, but the clarifying section can go.

Perhaps we need a clause stating one way or the other, if it's not covered, it's legal/illegal. I think that would be more important then any of what is put forth here, and would need to be done before we can proceed here. Also, I think maybe this bill should be broken up into 3-4 bills since some seems to be straight forward issues, but others need more organized debate.
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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Malliki Tosha »

Surely you must see that there is a difference between founding an organ of state and defining the officers that are not members of said organ, and making things legal or illegal in the private sphere?

I will vote against any clause saying that things not covered are legal/illegal. That would be really pointless, and I challenge you to find any law with such a clause.
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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Andreas the Wise »

Considering your reasoning, I will change my votes on the following matters:

f. III, E, 1, d
AYE

w. IX, D, 2
AYE

y. XIII, G, 2
AYE

Also:
r. VIII, F, 2, a-c
"2. Punishments for Treason may include but are not limited to the following:
a. Complete Exile from the lands of Shireroth.
b. Loss of citizenship.
c. Loss of privileges within the lands of Shireroth."
Would lesser nobles be entitled to punish people with exile or loss of citizenship in the normal course of exercising their judicial powers? If not, then this seems an important passage.

In fact ... can anyone normally give these punishments? If VII. C. 4 reads:
"4. Penalties of Conviction.
a. The punishment for those convicted of crimes in Shireroth shall be the ordeal, set by the court."
Then considering the Landsraad has been lax in their duties and not set the ordeal, that leaves the court free to do any punishment which may be considered an ordeal. My understanding of the word 'ordeal' in terms of punishment is that it would not include exile or loss of citizenship. In this case, VIII, F, 2, a-c is a very important piece of legislation, pronouncing extra punishments beyond the normal allowable punishments for a specific crime. It doesn't force that punishment, but allows it where it was not previously allowed. What would be unnecessary is if it had a section "d. Any other punishment allowed under VII. C. 4." That would be superfluous, if we're going for Lawbook Lite.

u. VIII, L
"L: Shirerithian External Military Policy
1. Let it be known to all foreign powers that unless they have a specific invitation from Shireroth (or a person legitimately representing Shireroth), or unless a legitimate reason has first been supplied for their presence, foreign troops are not allowed into the nation.
2. Also, foreign troops are expected to be withdrawn from the national borders at the conclusion of whatever event has brought them to the Republic, unless there is provision for a Treaty."
Your argument for removing it appears to be against the wording, not the actual content. Several times now you appear to be doing that with this bill - removing something which expresses an important sentiment but isn't worded perfectly instead of changing the wording. In this case, this is a law that foreign troops cannot enter Shireroth without an invitation; and must leave when their job is done. Sure, it's worded as a statement to foreign powers, but that's just a wording issue to be changed. The actual restriction is an important one which is not obviously assumed from the charter. The only reason I can see to removing it entirely instead of just rewording the start is if we wanted to weaken the nation's ability to deal with foreign armies so that they could come in and then take us over.

Just trying to do what seems best for Shireroth as a nation :angel That's the problem with being declared Margrave by the Kaiser after saying how his system should be used to promote individuals who contribute to the nation - I don't feel like I can use the role for what I want to do, just for what's good for the nation.
The character Andreas the Wise is on indefinite leave.
However, this account still manages:
Cla'Udi - Count of Melangia
Manuel - CEO of VBNC. For all you'll ever need.
Vincent Waldgrave - Lord General of Gralus
Q - Director of SAMIN
Duke Mel'Kat - Air Pirate, Melangian, and Duke of the Flying Duchy of Glanurchy

And references may be made to Vur'Alm Xei'Bôn (a Nelagan Micron of undisclosed purpose).

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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Malliki Tosha »

VIII, F, 2, a-c is unnecessary since we have the right to appeal. If a local Arbiter, that is a local noble, or the Imperial Arbiter issues a punishment that is inappropriate, the next higher Arbiter, and finally the Kaiser, can overturn the verdict. This allows for some sort of jurisprudence to develop.

If Shireroth is not a sovereign country, VIII, L is necessary. If we however are a sovereign nation, the fact that foreign troops are banned without an invitation is pretty obvious. Removing it will in no way disallow us to expel foreign uninvited troops. The MoMA has full authority in that area anyway.
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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Kaiser Mors VI »

US constitution:
Amendment 10 - Powers of the States and People. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Does that count as a law stating that something not mentioned is legal.

And for the very fact that you can't seem to decide if something is legal when the law is silent, or whether it's not, seems to show we need such a clause. At the very least, I want a clearly statement from you on it. Cause you seem unable to keep to one view or the other.

And I still want to see this bill broken up into several.

And where is our Praetor?
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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Malliki Tosha »

You can't drag up a clause from a constitution written over 200 years ago for a federation. Especially when you misinterpret it. It doesn't say that things not covered are legal or illegal. It merely says that the powers not given to the federation belongs to the states or the people.

My point is that when creating an organ of state, it is moronic to define what people are not included in its membership. This is quite distinct from general laws, where I believe that the things not prohibited by the laws should be legal. Otherwise, we would need a LawBook of several hundred thousand pages.
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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Kaiser Mors VI »

I'm not arguing any particular point. I'm just saying, like for gambling, if we remove it, is it still legal? Is it now illegal? Does silence of the law bespeak consent? We have no law barring marriage between two men, thus is it legal? Illegal? I've always assumed it to be legal cause it was never specifically barred. Would you agree with that. And what if someone in the future doesn't. I just think we should state, if it's not included in here, it is legal/illegal, to prevent confusion.

I know I misquote/interpreted that bit from the US constitution. It was closest I could off hand think of saying "Yes, here's a provisions for things not explicitly covered."
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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Malliki Tosha »

We don't need such a provision. What would be the point? The objective of making laws is to either establish a way of doing things, for example, what the powers, membership and function is of the IAC, or to specifically make things illegal. If we do as you say, and create a provision that states that anything not included in the laws are legal, we imply that they were illegal before. I just see no point in such a provision. The confusion you want to avoid can be dealt with by the Arbiter and Kaiser if the need arises.

As for men being allowed to marry, I turn to the law:
a. Marriage shall be defined as the legal union of two individuals under Imperial law.
This is what we call a gender neutral marriage law. Men and women are considered individuals, of course, hence they can marry freely. This establishes an official institution called "marriage", with the rules regulating it included. If there were no such law, people could still marry, but it would not be recognised by the Imperial Government.
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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Kaiser Mors VI »

Right. I think we are on the same page now...
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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Malliki Tosha »

The bottom line is that a provision making everything not included illegal is stupid since we would need a massive LawBook, and a provision saying everything not specifically made illegal is legal is therefore unnecessary.
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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Kaiser Mors VI »

My only issue with that is it relies on an assumption of agreement by present and future nobles, arbiters and Kaisers. Those who don't know the system won't know for sure...etc.

The fact that we have so many such clauses that either make thing illegal or legal when not needed kinda shows that it's been a long standing confusion.

I personally see no issue with stating the obvious in a law, it's better then omitting the unclear or unknown.
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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Malliki Tosha »

It's not unclear. People should learn how the laws work.
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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Kaiser Mors VI »

This is micronations, Law works however we decide it works.
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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Daniel Farewell »

Kaiser,

I think it's rather inappropriate to veto before things have been debated. I ask that you rescind your veto so that we can have a proper dialogue on what we can debate (in order to "effectivise" the legislative process).

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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Malliki Tosha »

I would, with all due respect, like the Kaiser to butt out when we discuss Landsraad legislation. :p
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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Kaiser Mors VI »

I didn't say it WAS vetoed, just that at this point I'm inclined to. And you could keep discussing. I was only line item vetoing, if at all.

And no, I won't butt out. I rarely even use this veto of mine...and I like to have my voice heard on these matters...

Anyhoo, carry on?
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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Jonas »

In my time, the Kaiser was asked not to interfere in debates...
From a distance I'm concerned about the rampant lawyerism manifesting itself in Shireroth currently. A simple Kaiserial slap on the wrist or censure by the community should suffice. - Jacobus Loki
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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Kaiser Mors VI »

Well, since this a matter of law, not procedure, I have every right to take part and such.

Moving on though, What's happening with this?
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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Malliki Tosha »

I would like a clarification from Daniel and Andreas of their respective votes.
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Re: LawBook Revision Bill 3934

Post by Daniel Farewell »

Kalir casts a vote of 'yea' to the entire bill as produced. May it become law.

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