Ban on lawyers, and establishment of a new court

[Scott of Hyperborea]

KYSNI SODARION
DAY OF LAKES AND FLOWERS, GREENSHOCK, 5906 SACHION

The Prince-Elder and the Council of Kai-Raikoth look with dismay upon the law courts of Shirekeep, which have lost sight of the true goal of law, and instead delight in cronyism, authoritarianism, and a morass of regulations that occlude the cold and clear light of truth.

Truly was it spoken by Korli Niderion: "Where there are most laws, there is least justice."

Thus, from this day forward no guild-licensed lawyer may practice zir craft within Kai-Raikoth. Nor may such a person make reference to zir guild status, nor claim any special honors. We wil not ban any Raikothlin from making recourse to the courts of Shirekeep, for such a ban would be only a further law, and no doubt there will be times when it is necessary to invoke the Kaiser's might to back up the laws of the land. But we discourage our people from such methods, and offer them an alternative.

We hereby establish the Nideriolin Court, where any two people with a complaint may bring it before the Court in person, without first contracting with a clique of expensive middlemen. They may each present their side simply, without citing arcane regulations or following procedures to the letter or risking being held in contempt of court because they spoke out of turn or tried to reach a settlement with each other.

The mediators of the court will try to get them to agree to a fair solution in an easily understandable and informal manner. And if they can't agree, the mediators will do their best to judge the matter fairly, according not to Shirerithian law but to the natural law of seeking truth and happiness for all. And the loser will abide by the decision, or else have his reputation besmirched and be banned from Kai-Raikoth for a season.

Further, we invite the counts, barons, and dukes of all territories that agree with this statement to agree to the same rules. That your fiefdoms will become lawyer-free-zones, that whenever possible you will settle your disputes in the Nideriolin Court, and that those who transgress its decisions will be banned from your territory. You might also consider requiring that your citizens with civil disputes accept requests to settle the dispute in this court rather than the Judex, though I don't know the legality of such regulations.

If the Hyperborean character of the court doesn't appeal to you, we can change some of the names. I was going to mediate, but if you have a better idea, that works too.

[Allot]

OK. This has gone far enough. Here's the deal. (Forgive me, Scott, for posting in your thread. It seemed appropriate. You can move it if you want to).

I believe (he can correct me if I'm wrong) that Austi's purpose in starting that lawsuit was to attempt to bring a little bit of activity to what appeared to him to be a slowly dying (and boring) forum. He was only trying to generate some interesting activity. He certainly didn't expect people to get all whiny and start leaving the forum. So he stopped it.

At the time, I considered posting a clarification that the trial should have been taken as a "rec-trial", if you would, but since I had no confirmation of Austi's intention, I could not.

While I respect Baron Scott's rule, and I do not mean to attempt to challenge his jurisdiction, I think Shireroth needs to get over itself. You can still be a "silly" nation. There's nothing wrong with lawyers (says the lawyer).

Anyway, I'm done my rant. Do what you want with the legal profession. Clearly the Landsraad didn't have a problem with it. And while I'm fine with Barons or even Dukes banning lawyers, I just would like to see people debate and attempt to DEAL with the problem as opposed to saying : "Oh, something I don't like? Screw that, I'm outta here!"

Rantily,

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Allot: I don't care whether Austi's lawsuit was silly or not. The point was the way it was handled.

While there's nothing wrong with lawyers, there is something wrong with requiring lawyers and making it illegal not to have one. And there's something very wrong with the current legal system. This *is* my attempt to deal with the problem. I'm starting an alternate court system that avoids the problems that I see afflicting the current one. How much more dealing-with-the-problem can you get?

I admit lawyers are a cheap target, and that I took that cheap target by banning them from practicing here, but as far as I know there's no real-world consequences to that. If there's something lawyerly you very much want to do in Hyperborea, I'll probably let you.

[Allot]

I'm sorry, Scott, I didn't mean to personally target you. I don't disagree with what you've decided to do, in fact, I respect it.

However, I don't believe it's illegal not to have a lawyer. If it is (and I don't think it is), there is something VERY wrong with the system.

Again, I didn't mean to target you, I just felt that your decision was the culmination of a misunderstanding. Also I resent being called a crony.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

I interpreted http://shireroth.kuroshiro.net/forum/vi ... f=7&t=9923 as meaning that everyone must have a guild-licensed lawyer rather than just asking a friend to help them plead their case or so on.

And I'm sorry. I've been in Ireland too long. Whenever anyone in Ireland doesn't like something, they accuse it of cronyism. I wasn't actually saying there were actual cronies.

[Allot]

No worries.

I see what you mean. This is an interesting debate. While it's not particularly difficult to become a member of the Mango Bar, is it a real restriction on freedom to just get a license? Wasn't this debated properly in the Landsraad?

[Andreas the Wise]

I like it. Competition. It always interests me when economic things cause someone to do something new and interesting* that I hadn't planned or instigated.


*Attempting to leave micronationalism is not new or interesting. Setting up an alternative civil court is.

[Austi_Scot]

The Nideriolin Court is a great idea and I praise Scott for coming up with the idea of a civil court.

But those in my Barony shall not be subject to a court in the Barony of Kai-Raikoth, we shall envision our own justice.

[Malliki]

Umm... Scott, if you payed any attention to the court case you would have seen that Austi was represented by Allot, an Advocate of the Mango Bar, and Corey was represented by Mr. Avon-El, "a friend" that was asked to "help them plead their case". The new law does not require you to have a lawyer, it only says that only lawyers may charge for the service. If you are going to outlaw something, you could at least pay attention to what the law actually says.

[Emogawa Koremoyasu]

Shut up, I hate you all.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Umm... Scott, if you payed any attention to the court case you would have seen that Austi was represented by Allot, an Advocate of the Mango Bar, and Corey was represented by Mr. Avon-El, "a friend" that was asked to "help them plead their case". The new law does not require you to have a lawyer, it only says that only lawyers may charge for the service. If you are going to outlaw something, you could at least pay attention to what the law actually says.

Hmm. You make an excellent point, but for now I'm standing behind my poorly-founded angry rant.

[Avi Mahikala]

Not sure I approve of anything that has a possibility of me having to work...

[Emogawa Koremoyasu]

FINLAND!

[Avi Mahikala]

ACTUALLY, I'm SWEDISH.

[Emogawa Koremoyasu]

DU GAMLA DU fria.

[Jacobus Loki]

I'm tempted to ban lawyers in all Elwynn, but we've got other things to clean up first.