Proposed Bill for the Landsraad.

[Erik Mortis]

If it pleases my Duke, I would ask him, most humbly, to propose the following act before the landsraad for vote. Quote:IX: Taxes&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp A. Definitions1. Local Tax: A Local Tax is a tax levied by a Duke, Baron or other lesser noble upon the citizens and/or businesses of the land they rule. Only a noble may impose a Local Tax upon the lands they rule. 2. Imperial Tax: An Imperial Tax is a tax levied by the Imperial government upon the citizens, nobles and/or businesses of the land. Only the Kaiser and/or Landsraad have the power to establish Imperial Taxes. 3. Royal Treasury: The Royal Treasury is under the direct control of the Kaiser of Shireroth and shall be used by the Kaiser for whatever purposes he deems necessary.4. Imperial Treasury: The Imperial Treasury is under the direct control of the Landsraad and shall be used by the Landsraad for whatever purposes it deems necessary. Ministers and Government employees shall be paid from the Imperial Treasury. 5. Order of Taxation: All Local Taxes shall be applied to a noble's, citizen's or business' income after the noble, citizens, or business has paid their operating and/or living expenses. All Imperial Taxes shall be applied to a noble's, citizen's or business' income after all Local Taxes have been applied. 6: The Minister of Trade may adjust Imperial Tax rates to meet economic demands. The Minister of Trade may not set Local Tax rates but may impose an upper limit upon Local Tax rates. The Minister of Trade shall have the power to establish and amend the dates and frequency at which taxes shall be levied. &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp B. Taxes1. Imperial Nobility Tax: The Imperial Nobility Tax shall be levied by the Kaiser of Shireroth upon all Dukes of the lands of Shireroth. This tax shall be levied against the tax income of the Duke being taxes and once collected shall be placed in the Royal Treasury. 2. Imperial Income Tax: The Imperial Income Tax shall be levied by the Landsraad upon all citizens of the lands of Shireroth. This tax shall be levied against the income of all citizens of Shireroth and once collected placed into the Imperial Treasury. 3. Imperial Business Tax: The Imperial Business Tax shall be levied by the Landsraad upon all business of the lands of Shireroth. This tax shall be levied against the income of all business of Shireroth and once collected placed into the Imperial Treasury. 4. Forum Maintenance Tax: The Forum Maintenance Tax shall be levied by the Landsraad upon the operators of all non-governmental forums in the land of Shireroth. This tax shall be levied monthly based upon the activity of the forum in questions and once collected placed into the Imperial Treasury. Erik Mortis BrookshireCommoner of Alexandretta

[Austi Scot]

If it pleases the Duke, I would ask him, most humbly, to allow me as Minister of Trade, to address this issue here before it is proposed.Austi ScotMinister of Trade

[Erik Mortis]

Than speak up... I can always edit what I wrote.. Erik Mortis BrookshireCommoner of Alexandretta

[Rakesh86]

It is an interesting proposal, and I will grant the Minister sometime before proposing it officially.

[Austi Scot]

Thank you Duke Rakesh Maziar Ackbar for allowing me to speak to this matter.First I wish to thank the Duke for his recent entry into the economy personally along with the opening of an account for this magnificent and might Duchy.To start the discussion I wish to point out the current law concerning the Ministry of Trade, from the lawbook in the Landsraad.C. Minister of Trade.The job of the Minister of Trade shall be to see to all economic affairs within Shireroth, to maintain the currency of Shireroth, and maintain the Imperial Treasury. The currency of the Imperial Republic of Shireroth shall be the €rb. As you know, the economy of Shireroth is in the infant stage, it being just about three weeks now since we began. There are many people who have opened an account and as is the norm and was expected, economic activity is not yet integrated fully into the activities of the nation. It is normal to have critics at all stages of any endeavor and my efforts to establish the economy has been no exception. It doesn’t escape you, I am sure, that many micronations over the years have attempted to establish an economy. I am certain that you have personal experience concerning this matter. I don’t know if you worked in the economic division of any micronation, but certainly as a citizen of this and other micronations you have seen those efforts.To point out that which you are already aware, few if any of those economies have succeeded to this day. There are some more recent efforts, such as our effort here in Shireroth, that appear to be on there way once again.The questions that come to my mind have been and are, “Why have those attempts at a simulated economy in micronations failed?” and “What can be done differently this time to gain success, since all too often doing the same thing over and over results in the same failure?” Since there are many issues that have contributed to the failure of those economies and since this particular discussion is about taxes, I wish to limit myself to the particular topic at hand. However, I beg your indulgence as I tie the tax proposal to what I see as the real problem.The real problem causing failure indeed is not taxes in and of itself. Although the tax proposal before you has both good and bad points, the real problem can be recognized in the wise saying, “Too many cooks spoil the soup.”Usually someone who is involved in making the laws of the micronation steps forward with the idea that there should be a micronational economy. From there the legislative body begins to develop laws while they attempt to find an economic administrator. The person who becomes the minister is usually sincerely interested in running the economy. The problem begins with the very first law that is made. The new minister now is shackled and cannot run with his ideas. Yes, naming the currency really doesn’t cause much if any problems. But then come salary laws, account laws, distribution laws, amount of currency laws, laws about what the currency should be based upon, and laws about how to run the bank. Then come laws about business licenses, business owners, economic forums, stock markets, foreign trade and national trade. Then laws about production, laws about how the currency is earned and what should be done with it, and on and on and on and on.…. And right there to usually head up the list is laws about taxes.Now ask your advisers, what is the purpose of all these laws? A wise advisor will tell you there purpose is to structure and advance the economy. Then ask your wisest advisers, what is the effect of all these laws? With knowledgeable scrutiny and in-depth observation the wisest advisor in your realm will tell you the effect is to not only to shackle the minister, but to tie his hands, weigh him down, and to bind him to actions which serve to kill the economy. He will tell you that these laws not only serve to kill the economy but that the first victim is usually the minister himself. Yes, these laws often drive the minister to leave. All this because any person willing to take the position has ideas of his own he wishes to develop. But what has happened instead is that the beef soup he started now has lamb in it from one cook, and chicken from another cook, and pork from yet another, while other cooks are headed his way with meat that can’t be recognized at all. The biggest cause of failure of most micronational economies is that people didn’t give the minister the opportunity to establish and develop the economy. They jump right in with laws of all sorts – and each with a different idea and method of implementing their law. They all want their idea to be the law of the land and they want someone else to have to follow their directions. This makes for a very bad crook of soup. As Minister of Trade I request Shireroth not make this all too frequent error in getting a working economic simulation established. Allow me to establish and develop the economy. Allow enough time, at least six months to a year, to see if matters I implement work or fail; to see if I’m flexible enough to develop the economy. If not me – then give another person that much time and freedom. I believe this is one of the most important things that any micronation can do for the development of the economy.I wish to continue in my next post concerning the specific proposal put before you. Austi ScotMinister of Trade

[Austi Scot]

Duke Rakesh Maziar Ackbar,In case you decide you want to introduce a tax law and that you wish to use the proposal before you I now address the issue of taxes directly and this proposal particularly.I believe Shireroth should allow the natural development of expenses before it is determined how much tax is to be collected. Thus no tax law should yet be introduced.As for this proposal: IX: Taxes A. Definitions1. Local Tax: A Local Tax is a tax levied by a Duke, Baron or other lesser noble upon the citizens and/or businesses of the land they rule. Only a noble may impose a Local Tax upon the lands they rule. 2. Imperial Tax: An Imperial Tax is a tax levied by the Imperial government upon the citizens, nobles and/or businesses of the land. Only the Kaiser and/or Landsraad have the power to establish Imperial Taxes. What is called here “Local Tax” is already implemented in my economic plans. It has been called a Nobility Tax. The Kaiser may impose the tax upon Dukes; Dukes may impose a Nobility Tax upon their Barons, Counts, and commoners. Barons may impose the Nobility Tax upon their Counts and commoners while Counts can impose the Nobility Tax upon commoners in their county. Dukes and Barons already have the right to impose a “Business Tax” upon those companies who locate within their land. These two sections are not needed.3. Royal Treasury: The Royal Treasury is under the direct control of the Kaiser of Shireroth and shall be used by the Kaiser for whatever purposes he deems necessary.4. Imperial Treasury: The Imperial Treasury is under the direct control of the Landsraad and shall be used by the Landsraad for whatever purposes it deems necessary. Ministers and Government employees shall be paid from the Imperial Treasury. Right now I have not established two separate treasuries. I first called the treasury the “Royal Treasury” and after reading the lawbook change it to the “Imperial Treasury”.From the very beginning it was announced by me as Minister that the Kaiser had the right to direct the spending of any amount for any reason. This is already in effect.Concerning number 4 above, the economy has not developed enough for a budget to be worked out. The economy isn’t even developed enough to develop a salary scale for the various positions of Ministers and government employees. I have set up a system whereby the salary of the person working, regardless if it’s in a ministry or in the private sector, is determined between the employer and the employee. I think the natural course of events may well find this to cause labor competition and thus the development of pay scales not only in the ministries and government positions but also within the private sector. 5. Order of Taxation: All Local Taxes shall be applied to a noble's, citizen's or business' income after the noble, citizens, or business has paid their operating and/or living expenses. All Imperial Taxes shall be applied to a noble's, citizen's or business' income after all Local Taxes have been applied. If this section becomes law it would be simple for two people to conspire to spend their entire income by paying the other. All of their income having been expenses there are no taxes applied. Then they simply pay back the full amount to the other, avoiding all taxes in the process.6: The Minister of Trade may adjust Imperial Tax rates to meet economic demands. The Minister of Trade may not set Local Tax rates but may impose an upper limit upon Local Tax rates. The Minister of Trade shall have the power to establish and amend the dates and frequency at which taxes shall be levied. As minister I already have the ability to adjust the tax rates and I have announced that I will do so as the need arises. This is a feature I have already implemented in the economy. Sure, when the time comes to have a tax law this will be a good feature, but we already have the feature in the mean time. I have also announced that I won’t set the Nobility or Business tax rates but that these rates shall be set by the Noble in the land. We don’t need to enshrine this feature into the laws of Shireroth at this point. B. Taxes1. Imperial Nobility Tax: The Imperial Nobility Tax shall be levied by the Kaiser of Shireroth upon all Dukes of the lands of Shireroth. This tax shall be levied against the tax income of the Duke being taxes and once collected shall be placed in the Royal Treasury. This is already in place although the current Kaiser has not chosen to impose a Nobility Tax. This feature was part of the original set up of the economy. We don’t need to legislate into law something that is already being done. In addition, it probably should be called the Royal Nobility Tax within the structure of this document only because there is a difference between the Royal Treasury and the Imperial Treasury.2. Imperial Income Tax: The Imperial Income Tax shall be levied by the Landsraad upon all citizens of the lands of Shireroth. This tax shall be levied against the income of all citizens of Shireroth and once collected placed into the Imperial Treasury. This too, is already being done although the Landsraad doesn’t control the treasury; the Minister of Trade controls it – as I honestly believe it should be at this development stage of the economy. We don’t yet have a good handle on how much it will cost to run each given Ministry or government office. There is at least one ministry that doesn’t even have an account, as the Minister has not chosen to join the economy.3. Imperial Business Tax: The Imperial Business Tax shall be levied by the Landsraad upon all business of the lands of Shireroth. This tax shall be levied against the income of all business of Shireroth and once collected placed into the Imperial Treasury. The only difference between this and what is now happening is that the Noble of the land may impose the business tax and have it collected for his Duchy or Barony. This would have the effect of taking this right away from the individual Nobles of Shireroth within their own land.4. Forum Maintenance Tax: The Forum Maintenance Tax shall be levied by the Landsraad upon the operators of all non-governmental forums in the land of Shireroth. This tax shall be levied monthly based upon the activity of the forum in questions and once collected placed into the Imperial Treasury. Personally, I’m not so sure this would be a good law. It may quickly become so labor intensive that no one will want to be the minister just to keep track of which forums are being used by who and how often and how much each person should pay. Clearly it is meant to tax either users more heavily or lower than others, or to tax those who use forums less than others more tax.As written here it isn’t clear if those forums which are used more would be taxed more or taxed less – How shall the operator of a forum collect from the users of the forum in order to pay this tax? … or, if the post about this topic in the general forum indicate, how would the operator impose a higher price upon those who use the forum less while charging a smaller amount to those who use the forum more? If a person doesn’t post in the stadium forum shall that person pay 100 Erb, 1000 Erb – and the person who makes one post pay 90 Erb - what shall be the rate paid for not posting? For all the reasons I have stated this law is not needed and has features that make no sense in any micronational economy. I am hopeful that no law shall be imposed upon me to administer at this time in the development of the economy, and certainly not this proposal. Austi ScotMinister of Trade

[david northworthy beckfor]

ok, of the law that was proposed, only the forum tax is something I like.......and I think it should be in place, but with as little legal interference as possible for now...Quote:4. Forum Maintenance Tax: The Forum Maintenance Tax shall be levied by the Landsraad upon the operators of all non-governmental forums in the land of Shireroth. This tax shall be levied monthly based upon the activity of the forum in questions and once collected placed into the Imperial Treasury.Personally, I’m not so sure this would be a good law. It may quickly become so labor intensive that no one will want to be the minister just to keep track of which forums are being used by who and how often and how much each person should pay.let me count them, report how much each forum is used and, based on your guidlinse, how much tax that would beQuote: Clearly it is meant to tax either users more heavily or lower than others, or to tax those who use those that arent being used make the place look bad, so those are taxed more then forums that are activeQuote: How shall the operator of a forum collect from the users of the forum in order to pay this tax? …the government ask for the cash, the forum manager has to work out were to get the cash from....best not to dictate how they run there business yetQuote: or, if the post about this topic in the general forum indicate, how would the operator impose a higher price upon those who use the forum less while charging a smaller amount to those who use the forum more? If a person doesn’t post in the stadium forum shall that person pay 100 Erb, 1000 Erb – and the person who makes one post pay 90 Erb - what shall be the rate paid for not posting? unless I missed something, i got the impression that it is the forum that is charged for being inactive, not that users...though the manager may have to get money off the userrs if he/she cant afford it themselves "Disclaimer: Whatever is in the above post is probably a result of my blind following of Kieran Bennett, because I have even less of a brain than Kieran. Don't even get me started on my lack of independent thought."

[david northworthy beckfor]

oh, and forum tax, if you make the subdivisions pay, will make the nobles want to earn money, and they will want there commerners to earn money, so they can tax them "Disclaimer: Whatever is in the above post is probably a result of my blind following of Kieran Bennett, because I have even less of a brain than Kieran. Don't even get me started on my lack of independent thought."

[Austi Scot]

The forum tax is the worst part of the whole proposal! - The "don't tax before spending earnings" is terrible also - but the forum tax is -- please don't.Austi

[david northworthy beckfor]

why not?it gives a bussiness, a barony or an organisation a reason to try and get more activity, AND get some profits in....thus it genereates the need to participate in the economy so they can make enough money to pay up......however, you are the econ expert, so it is safe to say that, though I dont know why you are right, you probably are....so explain please? "Disclaimer: Whatever is in the above post is probably a result of my blind following of Kieran Bennett, because I have even less of a brain than Kieran. Don't even get me started on my lack of independent thought."

[Erik Mortis]

I'll get back to this when I have time. Austi.. I don't think you understand what I mean by "expenses" my concept of expenses.. is the exact same as the one you use now. The Expenses you say EVERYone has to pay. That Percentage that automatically has to be spent. Living expenses. not expenses for leasury stuffs... You say I had to spend 20 of my income on stuff.. ok.. than that was cost of living. Cost of doing business..ect. Remove that... than tax the rest... whether it's been spent already or not. I'm not making a whole new system. I'm working with what you already are trying to put in place. At the same time trying to put some checks on your ministry. If you read the proposal.. yes.. you can't put a tax in place.. but you CAN disable a tax by putting its rate at 0%. If there is a tax you don't tihnk is needed. You set it at 0. I'm also trying to give control of local economies back to Nobles. As it stands you are forcing nobles to inact taxes they haven't ordered inacted. You are telling nobles what to do in thier own lands. If anything was redudent with what is in place now.. That was on purposes. The taxes were things I saw already in place. It is my oppinion that the MiniTrade should NOT have the power to create new taxes. But he should have the power to adjust them.In all honesty all the only thing I'm restricting of the MiniTrade is the ability to create taxes.I'll respond more later. Erik Mortis BrookshireCommoner of Alexandretta

[Erik Mortis]

Austi, I don't think you are looking at this proposal correctly. Just cause a Imperial law is in place taxing bussinesses, doens't mean a noble can't also.If you read the proposal Minitrade is really only losing 2 powers. Power to create taxes and the power to impose taxes on behalf of a noble. As MiniTrade it would be your job to collect taxes and interpret these laws. So you can inpertret the word Expenses to mean EXACTLY what I siad it was. the same "expenses" that you already impose. No loophole. Unless you want it to be. If I spend money on food to live.. that is an expense.. if I by a sterio for fun.. that's just spending frivilously. Perhaps I should go back and define "expenses" so you don't have a problem with it. This wasn't mean to be a exhaustive law to define the system. This is a basic law that puts down some reallly basic stuff and leaves lots of room for manuvering.as for 2 Treasuries. I had a reason to seperate them.. damn good one too.. I just can't remember it. Ok, I guess I'll remove that one. rewrite it. Erik Mortis BrookshireCommoner of Alexandretta

[Erik Mortis]

I have made adjustments. Proly didn't solve all your problems with it. But I covered some of the ones that you spoke of that I noticed the most. Now what do you say to it? I expressly gave the MiniTrade alot of the power you thought I was removing.Quote:IX: Taxes&nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp A. Definitions and Concepts1. Local Tax: A Local Tax is a tax levied by a Duke, Baron or other lesser noble upon the citizens and/or businesses of the land they rule. Only a noble may impose a Local Tax upon the lands they rule. 2. Imperial Tax: An Imperial Tax is a tax levied by the Imperial government upon the citizens, nobles and/or businesses of the land. Only the Kaiser and/or Landsraad have the power to establish Imperial Taxes. 3. Imperial Treasury: The Imperial Treasury is under the direct control of Kaiser and/or Landsraad. The Imperial Treasury shall be used for whatever purposes are deemed necessary by the Kaiser or the Landsraad. The Kaiser has supreme control over the use of the Imperial Treasury. Ministers and Government employees shall be paid from the Imperial Treasury. The Minister of Trade is authorized to have direct access to the Imperial Treasury to facilitate economic needs.4. Order of Taxation: All Local Taxes shall be applied to a noble's, citizen's or business' income after the noble, citizens, or business has paid their operating and/or living expenses. All Imperial Taxes shall be applied to a noble's, citizen's or business' income after all Local Taxes have been applied. 5.Expenses: Operating and/or living expenses are those expenses essential to the continued operation and/or healthy living of a business and/or individual. The Minister of Trade has jurisdiction over what is considered a legitimate living and/or operating expense6: The Minister of Trade may adjust Imperial Tax rates to meet economic demands, which includes but is not limited to reducing tax rates to a level so that they no longer apply; the tax though would still exist. The Minister of Trade may not set Local Tax rates but may impose an upper limit upon Local Tax rates. The Minister of Trade shall have the power to establish and amend the dates and frequency at which taxes shall be levied. &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp &nbsp B. Taxes1. Imperial Nobility Tax: The Imperial Nobility Tax shall be levied by the Kaiser of Shireroth upon all Dukes of the lands of Shireroth. This tax shall be levied against the tax income of the Duke being taxes and once collected shall be placed in the Imperial Treasury. 2. Imperial Income Tax: The Imperial Income Tax shall be levied by the Landsraad upon all citizens of the lands of Shireroth. This tax shall be levied against the income of all citizens of Shireroth and once collected placed into the Imperial Treasury. 3. Imperial Business Tax: The Imperial Business Tax shall be levied by the Landsraad upon all business of the lands of Shireroth. This tax shall be levied against the income of all business of Shireroth and once collected placed into the Imperial Treasury. Nobles may still impose Local Taxes upon Businesses. 4. Forum Maintenance Tax: The Forum Maintenance Tax shall be levied by the Landsraad upon the operators of all non-governmental forums in the land of Shireroth. This tax shall be levied monthly based upon the activity of the forum in questions and once collected placed into the Imperial Treasury. The Minister of Trade shall be vested with the power and responsibility of establishing and maintaining a fair rate and system to collecting this Tax. Forums operated directly by Ministries, the Kaiser of the Landsraad are the only groups not subject to this tax. Erik Mortis BrookshireCommoner of Alexandretta

[Austi Scot]

Quote:I don't think you understand what I mean by "expenses" my concept of expenses.. is the exact same as the one you use now. The Expenses you say EVERYone has to pay. That Percentage that automatically has to be spent. My telling someone they must spend is only a temporary feature done only to get the economy moving. It is not my intention to continually tell people they must spend and how much to spend. It is my intention that spending will become a normal part of the economy.As spending occurs – as people spend on their own – as companies begin to provide goods and services – I will not have to tell people to spend. A good economy works when people spend because they want to spend, when people spend because they obtain a value in what is provided.There is no set percentage that automatically has to be spent. The next time I might say a different amount for different reasons and with different requirements. Quote:I'm working with what you already are trying to put in place. At the same time trying to put some checks on your ministry. You are not working with what I am already trying to put in place. You are misunderstanding my tactics for my goals. It is NOT my goal to put an automatic spending percentage in place – that is only a strategy to get spending started. Yes, I have another strategy coming up soon. When it happens please don’t mistake the strategies and tactics for the goal. Quote:If you read the proposal.. yes.. you can't put a tax in place.. but you CAN disable a tax by putting its rate at 0%. If there is a tax you don't tihnk is needed. You set it at 0. I have read the proposal and I understand how a tax is enacted and how it can be deactivated. I don't that feature either.Quote:I'm also trying to give control of local economies back to Nobles. As it stands you are forcing nobles to inact taxes they haven't ordered inacted. You are telling nobles what to do in thier own lands. Erik, I am not forcing nobles to enact taxes – I have only suggested they enact taxes. I have given my opinion, my suggestions, and my advice. Right now a noble does NOT have to enact a Nobility Tax nor a Business Tax. It is the RIGHT of the noble to enact these taxes – I have not said they must enact them. Quote:If anything was redudent with what is in place now.. That was on purposes. The taxes were things I saw already in place. It is my oppinion that the MiniTrade should NOT have the power to create new taxes. But he should have the power to adjust them. I wondered why the bill had the things I was already doing – sometimes using different names for the same thing. It is my opinion that all too often these laws are too quickly made. As Minister of Trade I do want the power to create new taxes and to adjust them – just at the beginning of getting the economy set up – say for about six months to a year.I also want the criticisms and suggestions of others. I just don’t want everyone’s opinion set down in law. I want to be able to change and adjust the economy to Shireroth, to get it working before we start making laws about it. Once laws are made then the structure becomes rigid and difficult to adjust. Hearing from people will help me, as Minister, to change and adjust the economy so things work the Shirerothian way. I’m asking for the time to be given for the economy to become a part of Shireroth before we start dictating how it must work, in all aspects – not just taxes. Quote:In all honesty all the only thing I'm restricting of the MiniTrade is the ability to create taxes.In all honesty, what you are doing, if passed, would restrict MiniTrade from establishing and developing the economy to the best of his ability. Quote:Austi, I don't think you are looking at this proposal correctly. Just cause a Imperial law is in place taxing bussinesses, doens't mean a noble can't also.Erik, I think I am looking at this proposal correctly. If an economic practice is in place there is no need to pass a law establishing that practice. An economic practice is best brought about because it’s the best thing to do and then not by legislation but by societal practice.Quote:If you read the proposal Minitrade is really only losing 2 powers. Power to create taxes and the power to impose taxes on behalf of a noble. I am not imposing taxes on behalf of a noble. Again, I am not telling a noble they must impose a tax. I am only suggesting, advising, and giving my view to nobles on the subject of Nobility Taxes and Business Taxes. A noble doesn’t have to have a tax in his Duchy, a Baron doesn’t have to, a Count doesn’t have to – I’m only suggesting that such things fit into a feudal society.It is my view that at this early stage of the establishment and development of the economy you shouldn’t take any powers away from the MiniTrade. There are many reason why so many micronational economies have failed – one of those reason is the legislative body saying how things must be done instead allowing the Minister to develop the economy. Quote:As MiniTrade it would be your job to collect taxes and interpret these laws. So you can inpertret the word Expenses to mean EXACTLY what I siad it was. the same "expenses" that you already impose. No loophole. Unless you want it to be.As Minister of Trade I’m not interested in being just the tax collector and enforcing everyone else’s view of how the economy should work. I’m interested in establishing and developing the economy. If I wanted to interpret the word “Expenses” to mean exactly what “YOU” said it was – I would have asked you how to interpret it in the first place. As Minister I don’t need you to tell me how to interpret words. You are looking at a tactic and acting as if that is a standard practice – the final goal. Well, it isn’t!Quote:If I spend money on food to live.. that is an expense.. if I by a sterio for fun.. that's just spending frivilously. Perhaps I should go back and define "expenses" so you don't have a problem with it. Your definition of "expenses" is a poor definition for the economy.I would have a problem with it if you defined it in any fashion. The problem is that you don’t know where I’m going with the economy but you are attempting to run this aspect of the economy. Just let me develop the whole thing.Quote:This wasn't mean to be a exhaustive law to define the system. This is a basic law that puts down some reallly basic stuff and leaves lots of room for manuvering. Quote:as for 2 Treasuries. I had a reason to seperate them.. damn good one too.. I just can't remember it. Ok, I guess I'll remove that one. rewrite it. Actually, the two treasuries idea is a good one – for later when the economy is developed to a certain point and with some features we don’t yet have. I like this idea – its’ time just hasn’t come yet. Quote:I have made adjustments. Proly didn't solve all your problems with it. But I covered some of the ones that you spoke of that I noticed the most. Now what do you say to it? I expressly gave the MiniTrade alot of the power you thought I was removing. Erik, my main objection is to there being a tax law at all – at this point in the establishment of the economy no laws concerning the economy should be made. Let us have time to find what works and what doesn’t work. Let’s not put something into law just because we’ve tried it for a few weeks – had it take place once or not at all yet – and we think it’s a good idea. … and I still don't like the wording in the so called new proposal.Austi

[Erik Mortis]

1.... ok.. I don't know your goal.. Maybe you should accualy tell me it than! The problem is.. no one knows what you are up to.. so we are all scrambling in the dark to figure something out. I'm mostly just trying to put SOMETHING in writting so I and other know what in the world is going on. I'm trying to get the taxes I'm subject to written down so I can reference them. That's my real goal here2. I don't think the MiniTrade should have the power to create Taxes. That is a power that should ONLY be given to Nobles, the Kaiser and the Landsraad. Adjusting the tax rates and all that.. fine.. But creating taxes? No. If ANYTHING. That is the only thing I really want. Is to give control of Taxation back to the LAndsraad/KAiser as it stands only you know what taxes exsist.. maybe it sounds odd but.. the whole.. "taxation without representation" line kinda fits here.. even though I know it doens't seem to make sense. The Landsraad is the represetative body of this nation and should, second to the Kaiser, be in charge of creating taxes. I'm trying to write something (as odd as it sounds, with your help) that will give the power to create taxes only to the Landsraad without really restricting you in other ways. All I'm really puting in place is some definitions. I'll remove the "expeses" things from my proposal. Like I said, I'm trying to get things written down so people know what the hell is going on. Once people know what is going on... they will be active in the economy. I barely understand the economy and I'm trying to be an active participant in it and encourage people to spend. If anything.. all I really want is the definition of local and impiral tax and the order of taxation. Everything else was either filler to fill in gaps... or to get things moving. I felt the taxes I added gave you enough taxes to work with. How many taxes do you have or need?3. 6month to a year.. is waay to long a time. In the rhelm of micronations... this nation could die in that time... people will loose interest. Now I recognize that all things rushed into tend to fail. But go to slow.. and they fail too. At most you proly have 3 months to get everything together before people lose interest. In my oppinion the system should have been lay down by now or soon. and the prosess of integration would be the slow part. Maybe you have a system in place. Maybe I missed the post that layed it all out clearly. but I don't seem to be able to see a document that in clear wording (which is why I'm even bothing to write this proposal) how the system function. I really do want to work with you. I find the economy interesting. I also don't want to step on your toes. I recognize you proly know more about all this than I. Be you need to remember, people like to be able to see what is going on. Be able to read a "law" that outlines all this. Perhaps we could work together and create a non-Landsraad law that did all this. Like MiniImNat has it's regulations. You could have MiniTrade regulations, which you can add to and edit as you develope the system. And once it becomes stable add it to the lawbook. On a side note. I'm accually learning Perl so that I can create a program that would calculate all taxes and stuff for you. and all you had to imput was Income and a Subdivision. (and proly once that works expand it to work for Nobles(as they have nobility taxes) and bussinesses(as they have different taxes) Erik Mortis BrookshireCommoner of Alexandretta

[Austi Scot]

Quote:1.... ok.. I don't know your goal.. Maybe you should accualy tell me it than! The problem is.. no one knows what you are up to.. so we are all scrambling in the dark to figure something out. I'm mostly just trying to put SOMETHING in writting so I and other know what in the world is going on. I'm trying to get the taxes I'm subject to written down so I can reference them. That's my real goal hereYes, this is definitely my fault – that you and everyone else do not know what I’m up to. I did this on purpose and maybe it was wrong … but maybe it was the right thing to do? I wrote up how the economy would work before I first took the job. I’ve made revisions to that document a couple of times now (there were just minor) --- added the feudal economic items and took out the stock market because I gave that job to someone else.The document can be seen in MiniTrade. (How the economy works.) My reason for not putting up too much is because in the pass I have seen so many economic issues debated they have often either prevented the simulation from getting off the ground or have stalled it during its infancy. Also, I wanted the flexibility to stop doing things that weren’t working and to try other things to see if they would work. Quote: 2. I don't think the MiniTrade should have the power to create Taxes. That is a power that should ONLY be given to Nobles, the Kaiser and the Landsraad. Adjusting the tax rates and all that.. fine.. But creating taxes? No. If ANYTHING. That is the only thing I really want. Is to give control of Taxation back to the LAndsraad/KAiser as it stands only you know what taxes exsist.. maybe it sounds odd but.. the whole.. "taxation without representation" line kinda fits here.. even though I know it doens't seem to make sense. The Landsraad is the represetative body of this nation and should, second to the Kaiser, be in charge of creating taxes. I'm trying to write something (as odd as it sounds, with your help) that will give the power to create taxes only to the Landsraad without really restricting you in other ways. All I'm really puting in place is some definitions. I'll remove the "expeses" things from my proposal. As far as taxes go – I wanted to find the level of taxation that is going to work for Shireroth before its put into law. It will take getting the economy working before that level can be determined. If taxes are in law it will be more difficult to change them as needed. I know, your proposal addresses that – the Minister can adjust the rate. But I say, why even put into law at all yet, since the Minister can adjust the rate now. Let’s find out where we need to settle the taxes – or at least about where. Actually, people know as soon as they are announced, and I don’t intend to be changing the taxes all the time. Only after a period of testing shows they should be changed. We need to find out how much the government is going to need to have in order to operate. Then set the taxes according to that. Also, the nobles have the right to set both the Nobility Tax and the Business Tax. If they set those taxes I’ll be able to see how they affect the economy and adjust as well as make suggestions concerning taxes. When the economy reaches this point I think it will be time to recommend a tax law to the Landsraad and the Kaiser. Having a law now only puts restrictions on the economy that can make it difficult to operate. Perhaps an income tax is the right thing and maybe there’s a better way to collect taxes. Shireroth just needs more time to develop the economy to make this determination. Quote:Like I said, I'm trying to get things written down so people know what the hell is going on. Once people know what is going on... they will be active in the economy. I barely understand the economy and I'm trying to be an active participant in it and encourage people to spend. Like I said, there is the post about “How the economy works”. I have been attempting to make the economy as simple as possible for most people. Granted there are things I’m doing and methods I’m using that I’m not announcing, but the simple fact is this … You get some money (work for a company or ministry) --- you are given some options (mostly spending) – you choose from those options. Then you earn more money and you spend money. .. Earn, spend, earn, spend, earn spend. You can freely sell and purchase.So, sell, purchase, earn, spend, sell, purchase, earn, spend etc….. Quote:If anything.. all I really want is the definition of local and impiral tax and the order of taxation. Everything else was either filler to fill in gaps... or to get things moving. I felt the taxes I added gave you enough taxes to work with. How many taxes do you have or need?Right now all I have is the income tax, the Nobility Tax (not yet in place), and the Business Tax (not yet in place) …. I don’t yet know how many or how much is needed.Quote:3. 6month to a year.. is waay to long a time. In the rhelm of micronations... this nation could die in that time... people will loose interest. Now I recognize that all things rushed into tend to fail. But go to slow.. and they fail too. At most you proly have 3 months to get everything together before people lose interest. In my oppinion the system should have been lay down by now or soon. and the prosess of integration would be the slow part. Maybe you have a system in place. Maybe I missed the post that layed it all out clearly. but I don't seem to be able to see a document that in clear wording (which is why I'm even bothing to write this proposal) how the system function. I really do want to work with you. I find the economy interesting. I also don't want to step on your toes. I recognize you proly know more about all this than I. Be you need to remember, people like to be able to see what is going on. Be able to read a "law" that outlines all this. Perhaps we could work together and create a non-Landsraad law that did all this. Like MiniImNat has it's regulations. You could have MiniTrade regulations, which you can add to and edit as you develope the system. And once it becomes stable add it to the lawbook. Yes, read – “How the economy works” – and consider that the regulations. So let’s wait to put things into law until we see if the regulations work. Quote:On a side note. I'm accually learning Perl so that I can create a program that would calculate all taxes and stuff for you. and all you had to imput was Income and a Subdivision. (and proly once that works expand it to work for Nobles(as they have nobility taxes) and bussinesses(as they have different taxes)Um, I have a calculator already programmed to perform this high tech function.Austi

[Erik Mortis]

Ok. I'll stall my law writting mood. But you have to admit.. I made ya think..eheheDamn you. I wanted to make something useful...Oh well.. I'm still gonna keep making it. Gives me something to do and a way to learn Perl and CGI.. (anyways... I finished it yesterday...) once I get the CGI version working or get the program compiled into a binary.. I'de be willing to sell it to MiniTrade..hehe Erik Mortis BrookshireCommoner of Alexandretta