Law Profession Regulation Act

[Malliki]

This is my suggestion for a law to regulate the law profession, that is, lawyers:

OLD TEXT
LawBook Chapter VII, C:
1. Terms
a. The person who initiates the action before the court is the Plaintiff.
b. The person required to answer the action before the court is the Defendant.
c. Any person brought by a Plaintiff or Defendant to give statement is a witness.
2. Plaintiffs and Defendants speak on their own behalf.

NEW TEXT
LawBook Chapter VII, C:
1. Terms
a. The person who initiates the action before the court is the Plaintiff.
b. If the Plaintiff is the Imperial government, an Imperial Inquisitor may be appointed.
c. The person required to answer the action before the court is the Defendant.
d. Any person brought by a Plaintiff or Defendant to give statement is a witness.
e. Only a citizen who is licensed by the Imperial Judex to practice law may be contracted as an Advocate or appointed as an Imperial Inquisitor.
f. The Arbiter in a court action may not be contracted as an Advocate, or appointed as an Imperial Inquisitor, in the same or a related court action.
2. Plaintiffs and Defendants may either speak on their own behalf, or contract an Advocate to speak on their behalf.

Suggestions are most welcome.

[Andreas the Wise]

How do we get licensed ...

[Kaiser Loki III]

I oppose entry barriers, esp. in Micronationry.

This will be vetoed while my Kaisership lasts.

[Erik Mortis]

But it creates a job, a job that could earn money. We are trying to find ways to get money moving in the economy, this is a clear and practical way.


Licensing would be done by the Judex. So the Judex would create a course/test something to make sure a person knows the basics of Shireroth law. At least how to find and quote law, and awareness of the various documents we keep law in (Lawbook, Decreebook, Charter, Procedures of the Landsraad). Then once the Judex is satisfied they have the basics of Shireroth law and decorum, the Judex issues a license. The Judex could/should also place a small administration fee of say 10erb to help bring in money for the government.

This is not a barrier, it is in the Judex' best interest to have Licensed Law Professionals, so the Judex will seek to make it reasonable for people become Licensed. Honestly, I would advocate the creation of more such licenses and other professional institutions.

[Erik Mortis]

Example Test

Documentation Question:
*Name the various documents that contain Imperial Law and Procedures, what is the nature of the law in these documents, and who maintains these documents and/or can change them.

Analytical and Quotation Question: (this one would vary from test to test)
*Can two men marry under Shireroth law? Quote relevant sections of law.

Decorum Questions:
*How should the Arbiter overseeing a case be referred to while performing this duty?
*Who may speak within a case?


I myself could answer all these with ease (except one: I don't know what honorific we use for the Arbiter, we have yet to pick one).

Honestly, that's the extent of the test I'd want to see to attain a license. If a person isn't capable of at least giving a decent answer to these questions they shouldn't be practicing law, and annoying the Judex.

[Oroigawa Koreyasu]

Seems reasonable to me.

Honestly, I would advocate the creation of more such licenses and other professional institutions.

I'm trying to think of how to work similar professional licensing into some of the other various departments and ministries. I mean, the MiniEx has DiploCorp, but that's not very professional and doesn't really need to be. I can't find a reason why we'd need professional accountants from the MiniTrade. Professional administration would be dangerous.

...I guess professional cartographers might work...

I don't know...

[Malliki]

How do we get licensed ...

That will be left to the Judex to regulate in more detail.

I oppose entry barriers, esp. in Micronationry.

This will be vetoed while my Kaisership lasts.

This is a way to get money moving, something I think we all agree is a good thing if we want a working economy. To be accepted into the Mango Bar, you'll have to pay for a basic course in Shirerithian law, and pay for a short test like Erik's example. When you're accepted, you can practice law, whether it is representation in a court for a fee or just simple counselling. Why is getting the money moving a bad thing?

Other types of businesses that could be licensed are private banks, Orbat sellers (already in the works), casinos, private schools, cartographers as you said, etc.

[Andreas the Wise]

Barriers to entry are fine as long as they're not too high. Ocia and Amokolia both ran into troubles recently when they refused to let people who would have been fine as lawyers represent people because they "weren't qualified" (and it turned out the only qualified people were highly biased against the defendant). With Ocia, one of the problems emerged that though there was a course and test ... it was only held every six months.

I'd suggest (and I'd suggest Prodigy does the same for war) that the test can be taken at any time, for a small fee. The course can be run as often as the organiser likes (and interest is there), for a much larger fee. If the test can be taken at any time, and isn't too difficult, then it should be fine and no real barrier to entry. (that, or make it possible for people to represent others when they're unqualified, but make it so that only licensed lawyers can advertise that or receive payment for the service)

[Malliki]

Erik's example test was a very good one. The course could be a thread in the University that you pay to see, with an option to contact the teacher (me probably) with any questions. That fee will be higher than that for the test. The test should be available at least once a month, preferably at least twice a month. This also depends on the interest for taking the course and exam. I have experience from Cyberia (VC of), an extremely legalistic system, so I know what to avoid when it comes to legal matters.

[Ari Rahikkala]

(this post was noising up the thread a bit and not getting people interested... I moved it off to http://shireroth.kuroshiro.net/forum/vi ... f=1&t=9673)

[Kaiser Loki III]

Ocia and Amokolia both ran into troubles recently when they refused to let people who would have been fine as lawyers represent people because they "weren't qualified" (and it turned out the only qualified people were highly biased against the defendant).

Exactly. Having been through the exact same situation a number of times, I will not subject Shireroth to this kind of elitism.

My designated successor is more kindly inclined to this than I, so don't bother to put this through the Landsraad until he is Kaiser. I will veto it, even if the vote is 5-0 in favor.

And I have yet to veto anything.

Praise the gods this is Shireroth where civilization and civility is paramount, or I'd be packing my bags.

(Sigh)

Again, this demonstrates a difference in the reasons to be involved in micronationry, simulation vs. escapism. Gods know I live with enough regualtion and bureaucracy in RL.

[Malliki]

Oh ye Gods. This has nothing to do with elitism. This is a way for us to secure a minimum set of skills for those wishing to be lawyers. The test isn't hard, the course is easy. Where's the bureaucracy? This suggestion doesn't remove everyone's right to represent themselves. This only adds the option that, if you wish, you can hire a licensed person to represent you. That is, to be allowed to charge for this service you have to be licensed. We'll consider allowing non-licensed persons to represent without payment, but calling this bureaucracy is just plain wrong.

[Andreas the Wise]

NEW TEXT
LawBook Chapter VII, C:
1. Terms
a. The person who initiates the action before the court is the Plaintiff.
b. If the Plaintiff is the Imperial government, an Imperial Inquisitor may be appointed.
c. The person required to answer the action before the court is the Defendant.
d. Any person brought by a Plaintiff or Defendant to give statement is a witness.
e. Only a citizen who is licensed by the Imperial Judex to practice law may be contracted as an Advocate or appointed as an Imperial Inquisitor.
f. The Arbiter in a court action may not be contracted as an Advocate, or appointed as an Imperial Inquisitor, in the same or a related court action.
2. Plaintiffs and Defendants may either speak on their own behalf, or contract an Advocate to speak on their behalf.
3. Only a licensed Advocate or Inquisitor can charge for their services.

That help?

[Malliki]

4. A private citizen may be contracted for representation, but may not charge a fee for this service.

Needed? I'm not sure.

[Erik Mortis]

Leave that off. Otherwise I like the modified text.

And I say we put this to the Landraad even though the Kaiser is threatening to veto it. I think it's time we did this. And if it fails, we'll just try again under Corey. If it fails under him, we'll try again under me! *hint to Corey as to who his heir should be*



I was thinking, since this law is only for the Imperial courts, maybe we should add a line that allows lower courts to restrict representation in their courts to those with a certificate issued by the of that Duchy.

[Malliki]

Couldn't that be confusing, that there are both people licensed by the Judex and people licensed by the individual Dukes?

[Andreas the Wise]

Dukes could only register people already registered by the Judex.

[Malliki]

Eh, okay. This seems like a minute issue anyway. I'll figure something out and then introduce this in the Landsraad, with the appropriate changes.

[Oroigawa Koreyasu]

And if it fails, we'll just try again under Corey. If it fails under him, we'll try again under me! *hint to Corey as to who his heir should be*

It probably won't fail under me anyway.

[Erik Mortis]

But I still wanna be Kaiser.



The Dukes would be issuing a Certificate not a License, that allows a lawyer to practice in their Duchy.

[Oroigawa Koreyasu]

But I still wanna be Kaiser.

Doesn't everybody?

We've talked on the subject before, Erik.

[Kaiser Loki III]

4. A private citizen may be contracted for representation, but may not charge a fee for this service.

Add this, and we may not need to wait for Corey. My problem is denying the right of counsel of one's choice.

It is said that he who represents himself has a fool for a client. Well, as God is my witness, I am that fool!

Gomez Addams

[Malliki]

I will, but I will substitute "private citizen" for "unlicensed person" or something similar since that is what the section is intended to regulate.

[Kaiser Loki III]

Great. thanks. I wiil review the final draft with a better outlook.

[Erik Mortis]

Then what's the point of this at all?

[Malliki]

To allow members of the Mango Bar to charge for legal services, while other people may not.

[Kaiser Loki III]

Learning and knowledge are good in themselves. Mike wants a bar association, I want the right of folk to be able to choose counsel of their choice. It's a viable compromise.

[Erik Mortis]

I don't support it.

People could still have counsel of their choice, but they would have to pick from people who are licensed. Which honestly would give them a better chance in the courts.

[Kaiser Loki III]

Maybe so, but people need to be able to choose their counsel.

Mike, go aahead and edit it. This has a chance of passage. If a problematic Raynor XV wants to amend it in the future, that is a question for the ages.

[Erik Mortis]

I'm not saying they can't choose, just limiting the pool to those qualified.