Protecting land without having it

[Jonas]

Some guys in the MCS don't want to give us more land, so I have some propositions. I have talked about it in the Landsraad but I think we better discus it in a new thread.

I had some propositions and I want to know what gets the most support.

1. Batavia itself annex old Shirithian lands. This lands become a part of the province of Ingelburg and the West-Benecian Company. This Company is governed by the Governor of Ingelburg, that's me on the moment
The culture and history gets protected, but after I'm gone I can't tell for sure that the next Governor will respect the history.

2. The Commonwealth of Batavia annex old Shirithian lands. This lands become part of a new member state (Shirenew, New-, Old-Shireroth, or something). The member state get located at the Shirithian forum (like a duchy).
It can adopt the Shirithian currency, the laws and customs (the Landsraad could even get appointed as parliament).
The only things a Member State can't do is having its own army (an own civil, or Ducal / Baronial private guard is permitted). And the making of official maps lays also in the hands of Batavia.

There is an official exhange rate in the Commonwealth. So when the Erb gets adopted as currency, exhanging between Batavia and Shireroth will get possible (I don't know this is good, or bad...).
The member state will need to be represented in the Raad van Staten (Council of States), I could translate when it's needed. But the Raad don't have much power.

If we chose option 2, we need to make sure the citizenship-rule don't count with this state (the state is Shirithian!). And a Baron in a Shirithian Barony can get a title of Baron too in the new state (it's officially still independent).


I must admit that option 2 gets the most support in Batavia. It's a way the Shirithians can develop and protect the culture of their old lands. And our King would be very happy if there is a new active Member State in the Commonwealth (even if its a vesselstate of Shireroth).

[Harald of Froyalan]

I'm in favour of option 2.

[Jess]

So the CoB would have De Jure status and Shireroth would have de facto status then?

[Jonas]

So the CoB would have De Jure status and Shireroth would have de facto status then?

Yes, that's it.
But the nation needs a governement form... a Grandduchy? An Imperial Republic (just like Shireroth), Independent Duchy,...
And we need a name, and I need a map so I can claim the land

[Erik Mortis]

Just another way to anger the MCS....

[Jonas]

Just another way to anger the MCS....

The Commonwealth has the land (not yet, but if it has it), what we do with it is our chose.
And this would be possitive for the Batavian culture too. It's a way to connect both Sectors (Anglophone and Dutch). Reasons enough for Batavia to approve the idea.

I want to give it a try. Where is the time we did experiments, Erik?

[Andreas the Wise]

Look, the official representatives of the MCS here (Benkern and I) want Shireroth to have more land, so we don't mind. When do other MCS people notice? Not to be underhand, but since it's officially part of the Commonwealth of Batavie (the MCS not having clear policies on the land of member states within confederation/commonwealths) Batavie just makes it look like a Batavian claim, and nobody need follow the exact details. If it's a subforum on Shireroth, it doesn't even need adding on the forum list.

I'm fully in support of option 2. Jess - if you were still baron of the land given in the indpendent Dutchy (come on, it HAS to be a Dutchy), would you like to give Amokolia's land gift to them?

[hypatias mom]

I think Jonas' proposal 2 has all sorts of nifty possibilities. I would love to see what this "Independent Duchy," both Dutch and English, would be able to develop. After all, there are a lot of new brains involved--I'm sure something great could come of it. And, as Andreas said, if it is a Batavian claim, people won't put too many restrictions on it if it starts to look like a Shirerithian clone.

[b3n|<3r|\|]

This is crazy! Good luck.

[Ari Rahikkala]

I like proposition 2 a lot. I wouldn't make it a duchy, though - the new state has symbolic significance, of course (it says "We love Batavia") but it takes more than significance to make a duchy, it takes people. Unless some show up to post there, I say we should make it a barony under Kildare or Yardistan, but with a duchy-level forum in the subdivisions list.

So, how about a name? The two historical Jasonian cities on the island were Enhasa and Maraguo, and I like the latter name a lot. Yeah, everyone who hasn't been referring to the place as Redoubt Island has been talking only about Enhasa, and Maraguo isn't in the territory that Batavia will own anyway, but... well, look, Enhasa sounds like it goes well together with Solaria and Armoria and all those other high-minded and enlightened names. Jonas's proposed story behind the state had poor farmer immigrants and mass tourism in it - that kind of a place just sounds a lot more like a Maraguo than an Enhasa to me.

Soo... Grand Barony of Maraguo, anyone? Or, to try words that for some reason feel closely associated to baronies and the Dutch (and also the Deutsch ) in my head... Maraguoan Free State? Or something like that, with Freiherr as the ruler's title?


Jonas, if there's interest in this in Batavia, and nobody here has objections, I'll open an interim forum for organising discussion about this nation.

[Jonas]

I would prefer not to place it under another Duchy (or maybe I don't want to give it to Yardistan ), it is still an 'independent' nation.
Grand Barony of Maraguo sounds good, but Maraguoan Free State isn't bad either. Call it Maraguo untill we found the best name


If I see all the response option 2 is chosen and approved. There is interest in Batavia (I even got a positive message of a republic, a real surprise! ), so if you want to place an interim forum you can do it.

[Ari Rahikkala]

OK, I expect to create the forum tomorrow... for now, a few issues to discuss, in very vague order of importance:

- we've already gotten started on the name. How about Maraguo-Vrystaat? A little Afrikaans never hurt a Dutchman . (of course, the "Maraguo" part itself is still up in the air, too, but I'm going to use it for now).

- citizens. We're creating an autonomous, reasonably prominent nation out of whole cloth here - who will we trust to develop and make use of it? Jonas already has Kildare and Ingelburg to take care of, you know...

- governance. Actually, uh, this one will be decided after the nation is founded, I guess, but since it's *likely* they'll go for Landsraad governance:

- position in the Landsraad. This is what I meant with the "a barony under Kildare" (well, "a barony under Straylight" would be considered acceptable too, now that I think of it ) thing: If they're governed by the Landsraad, surely they'll need to be represented - I say we decide just how much presentation should be granted once we see how many people are interested in joining. In the current situation where Duchies are small and only Dukes have a real vote, I'd say three active people who weren't previously Shirithian would be enough for Duchy-equivalent status - but that's for the Landsraad to decide.

- citizenship. Will any special rules apply to Maraguan citizenship? How about the good ol' "Citizenship in Maraguo does not entail citizenship in Shireroth or the other way around, but if you're in both, Maraguo won't count toward your tri-citizenship limit"?

- the flag. Vexillology is vexatious. For reference, here's the flags of Jasonia, Batavia and Shireroth (you know nobody likes your flag when people don't bother even anti-aliasing the diagonals ). Ideas?

- the forum banner. This one can wait, of course, but do we have people with skills in the graphic arts who want to try their hand?

Just another way to anger the MCS....

I don't think so. As Andreas and Jonas said... how would this annoy the MCS vs. Shireroth when we'd actually be *withdrawing* our claim on Redoubt Island for this?



Oh, and Jonas:

I've been trying to follow Batavia's forum lately (trying to grok Dutch without any education in it is actually somewhat fun, though I mostly just use Google Translate), but I haven't been able to find any discussions on these proposals. Are there any public threads on it, and if there are, where might I find them?

Also, how well do the Batavians generally know English?

[b3n|<3r|\|]

A little Afrikaans never hurt a Dutchman

No, but a very little Afrikaans did hurt quite a few other people.

I suggest that this new little Jaso-Dutch southern haven be put under the protection of the Duchy of Yardistan as an autonomous Grand Barony. Given its proximity to our de-facto capital region of Mar Sara and Navy I think it would make sense.

[Erik Mortis]

I just fear that with all this land we keep grabbing, soon the small murmur for our behind reduced, will grow into a large murmur, and then into a legit vote, then a passed vote, and thus a reduction.

For years Shireroth has shown restraint in our dealings with the MCS, and its members. Especially when we have active members in the administration. Now it seems we have abandoned any semblance of restraint in the MCS. Further, We have shown restraint as a courtesy to the MCS, to help prevent land crunches. It was a sign of our respect for the organization, and a means to help alleviate problems. Shireroth doesn't give up land, willingly or officially, so once we have land, we have it forever. So each time we take more land, we remove land from all available land on the map permanently. Thus another reason to fear angering people to the point they call for a forced reduction.

I love getting land as much as the next person, maybe more. But I also look at the long term effect of our annexations.

[Andreas the Wise]

Which is why this is Batavian, not Shirithian land. Benkern explained the Shirithian "wait and take it when they're least expecting it" principle. I can safely report that general feeling in the Council is that we have enough land, but there's no serious talk of reducing it. Removing Leng and Sypyr, maybe, but not Shireroth.

[Erik Mortis]

Then let's bloody well leave it that way .


(not sober disclaimer)

[Jonas]

- we've already gotten started on the name. How about Maraguo-Vrystaat? A little Afrikaans never hurt a Dutchman . (of course, the "Maraguo" part itself is still up in the air, too, but I'm going to use it for now).

I'm Belg! Not Dutchman!
But Belgians had a large influence in the Dutch colonisation and the creation of the Oranje Vrystaat. I wouldn't mind using the name Maraguo-Vrystaat, it's a good name

- citizens. We're creating an autonomous, reasonably prominent nation out of whole cloth here - who will we trust to develop and make use of it? Jonas already has Kildare and Ingelburg to take care of, you know...
- governance. Actually, uh, this one will be decided after the nation is founded, I guess, but since it's *likely* they'll go for Landsraad governance:

I don't mind living in Maraguo too, but I really want to be Count (or Mayor) of Enhasa.
The form of governement we can decide later, after the foundation of the nation.

- position in the Landsraad.

In the beginning we can give it only the right to speak in the Landsraad.

- the flag. Vexillology is vexatious. For reference, here's the flags of Jasonia, Batavia and Shireroth (you know nobody likes your flag when people don't bother even anti-aliasing the diagonals ). Ideas?

Maybe we could do something like they did in Orange Freestate, with the three flags in the center.

- the forum banner. This one can wait, of course, but do we have people with skills in the graphic arts who want to try their hand?

I will see what I can do.

Are there any public threads on it, and if there are, where might I find them?

I don't think you can see the Lager- or Hogerhuis. In the Hogerhuis we were discussing about it. But I got positive response from citizens via PM.

Also, how well do the Batavians generally know English?

Most Batavians are from the Netherlands. They think they can speak English. Like I think I can speak French (it's terrible!)
I don't think speaking and understanding English will be a problem.


Erik, don't be so negative! It's Batavian land!

[Jonas]

A possible flag:



If we have our forum I will post some more.

[Ari Rahikkala]

http://shireroth.kuroshiro.net/forum/vi ... .php?f=178

[Jonas]

I see you added my banner! Thanks!

Only one problem...
'You do not have the required permissions to read topics within this forum.'

[Ari Rahikkala]

Ack, phpBB permissions strike again. Should be fixed now.

[Jonas]

Yes, it is fixed! Long live Ari!

[Jeroen van Veen]

lol Jonas is doing things without permission from our Lagerhuis again

[Ari Rahikkala]

lol Jonas is doing things without permission from our Lagerhuis again

[Jonas]

Ow no, Jeroen can see everything we say!

Must... delete... some... evidence...

The Lagerhuis doesn't need to approve the preparations of a new state...

[Jeroen van Veen]

You should tell them really

[Jess]