Re: Ardashir

[Scott of Hyperborea]

I know we're all really angry about the forum deletion, but banning him from all micronations forever and vowing that his name may never be spoken again?

Ardashir has always been slightly insane and evil and destructive. This isn't the first time he's deleted a forum for his own amusement - that was the Lighthouse City State affair, before most of your times. But the thing about Ardashir is that, in between the genocide and the murder and the terrorism, he's actually a pretty cool guy. I think the Elwynnese, as upset as they are, will be the first to confirm this.

I can't really accuse Ardy of the crime of deleting history; he deleted all of two weeks or so worth of posts. It's not that this isn't serious, because it is. But I don't know if it's so serious that we should run a guy who's been one of the pillars of the micronational community for ten years out of the hobby without even hearing his side of the story.

If this sounds like "one rule for people we like, another for people we don't", I would remind everyone that this is Shireroth, and Shireroth has always worked that way, and it's generally gone okay because Shirerithians have good taste in people.

Finally, I must object to the penalty of complete removal of his name from history. This was kind of funny when we did it to !@#$, but he'd been around for a few months. Ardashir has been around for ten years, has been a Duke and a Kaiser, and without him this country's history is going to have more holes than a piece of swiss cheese. We're not some Communist country that makes non-persons out of anyone we don't like. Aside from !@#$, I suggest we remove the whole "cannot speak his name" penalty as a bit immature and as dangerous to the study o f micronational history.

I suggest allowing Elwynn to decide how to punish Ardy, and telling them we'll go along with whatever they decide. The Elw are Ardashir's friends. If they have it in their heart to forgive him, we can do no less; if they don't, we'll know he's truly lost.

[Shyriath]

Understand, Scott: as far as I'm concerned, this is more than just about forum deletion. It's also about treachery. Ardy's exhibited various forms of evilness, and most of them were either harmless in the big scheme of things or actively amusing. But I'm not inclined to be lenient when it comes to backstabbing, and this stab in the back is of epic proportions. "Really angry" does not come close, not anywhere close, to how I feel about it. I am severely enraged. I am royally, nay, imperially pissed off. My wrath waxes full fricking mightily.

And this is because, if I founded a nation and it got deleted two weeks in just by someone who bypassed the security, I could shrug it off. But if the same was done by someone who I was considering a collaborator, a fellow nation-builder, someone who shared my goals, someone who I had given my trust to and who abused that trust? I would be in shock. I would be grieved. I would be angry. I would be hurt. So far as I have a concept of a deadly sin in the way I look at the world, betrayal of trust is one of the worst.

If Elwynn asks that the penalty be reduced here, or that the matter be dropped, I will defer to them; they have the right to ask it. When Ardy comes back, he will should have the chance to speak his piece, and if he shows regret or remorse, then perhaps I will ask that the more severe penalties be dropped; we all make mistakes. But if neither happens, and if he is tried, and if he is found guilty, then he deserves what he gets. Any and all of it.

My understanding is that I am considered a nice person, and indeed I try to be so. But unless Ardy gives me a really, really good reason, I am not going to be nice in this.

[CJ Miller]

Screw imperially, I'm DIVINELY pissed off (and yes, I can be, I'm the Arbiter ffs).

[Gil'les Mel'ang]

I'm going to come out completely on Ardashir's side here and state that I think Elwynn can and should have broken away from Antica. Firstly, Elwynn can break away from Antica because of its historic and legal status as a separate entity, and because Octavius entrusted its leading citizen Ardashir with administrator privileges over the forums (something Octavius does not even allow for other leading, long-time citizens of Antica). Secondly, Elwynn should have broken away from Antica because, as we all saw with its treatment of Samudra culminating in a full invasion, Antica is not kind to its provinces unless their citizens are in blind lockstep with the Antican Republic regime even if illegal by Antica's very own laws. Perhaps as Ardashir saw Antica closing in on Elwynn's freedoms, he decided it was time to bold.

But let us not confuse breaking away from Antica with breaking away from Shireroth. I would agree that Elwynn breaking away from Shireroth was bad for Elwynn. And perhaps now, as Elwynn finds itself having to engage in the struggle of being a new micro-nation in a sector that has greatly consolidated, Elwynn and Ardashir will realize the mistake of their breaking away from Shireroth.

In conclusion, it is my opinion that Ardashir's name should not be expunged from micro-national history, he should not be banned from micro-nationalism, and he should not be penalized in any shape or form. (This said, I am not a Shirerithian citizen, so I do not really have any say in the matter other than as a somewhat interested observer.)

[Falkner van der Sluijs]

Ardashir's actions are nigh unforgivable in my eyes, forgive me if I have a zero-tolerance policy on treason and malicious forum deletion.

[Kaiser Ometeotl I]

Scott, one week or one year. I feel the crime is the same.

[Demon of Fides]

But the ninth circle of hell most of all is reserved for traitors. The second round is reserved for traitors to their country.

They lie encased in ice for all eternity, starving...

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Understand, Scott: as far as I'm concerned, this is more than just about forum deletion. It's also about treachery. Ardy's exhibited various forms of evilness, and most of them were either harmless in the big scheme of things or actively amusing. But I'm not inclined to be lenient when it comes to backstabbing, and this stab in the back is of epic proportions. "Really angry" does not come close, not anywhere close, to how I feel about it. I am severely enraged. I am royally, nay, imperially pissed off. My wrath waxes full fricking mightily.

And this is because, if I founded a nation and it got deleted two weeks in just by someone who bypassed the security, I could shrug it off. But if the same was done by someone who I was considering a collaborator, a fellow nation-builder, someone who shared my goals, someone who I had given my trust to and who abused that trust? I would be in shock. I would be grieved. I would be angry. I would be hurt. So far as I have a concept of a deadly sin in the way I look at the world, betrayal of trust is one of the worst.

I can understand an argument based on "forum deletion is an unforgivable crime, therefore we cannot forgive him", but this I cannot accept.

Elwynn itself was born in treachery and backstabbing. A Duchy we have nurtured and helped along for ten years suddenly breaks from us at our darkest hour, turning what was yet another crisis into a serious threat to the existence of Shireroth that we needed Divine Intervention to get through at all. They did it under the urging of foreign powers, and they did it completely without consulting Elwynnese citizens they expected to disagree with them. Their rebellion was nothing less than part of a conspiracy to destroy Shireroth, after having been in Shireroth for years and years, holding positions from Kaiser on down, and making friends with all of us here.

So how come when we are black-heartedly backstabbed, everyone's okay with it and says "Oh, no, we won't pursue any silly grudges against Elwynn, we'll let them go their own way", and then when the backstabbers themselves get backstabbed, everyone is suddenly enraged? I had ten years of my work on Elwynn destroyed by a bunch of people who thought it would be funny to secretly plot to tear the Duchy apart in order to give Babkha or someone a temporary political advantage, and to be honest, I'm still a LITTLE angrier about that than I am that Ardashir got really drunk or angry one day and deleted a two-week old forum.

I'm not saying we can forgive him just because he did it to people I don't like, but I think this is very much a case where we should be grudgingly following the law as a duty, rather than inspired by holy vengeance.

[Harvey Steffke]

Elwynn's forum was pretty crappy. Come on, it was. If we're going to start waxing rhetoric about unforgivable crimes and stuff, we have to at least take the context into account. Deleting one post isn't an unforgivable crime. Deleting two isn't. Where's the line? I strongly believe it's something above what the Elwynn forums attained. Before the deletion, there hadn't been any new posts there in the main forum like a week, and the only ones there were were things like "Antica greets you!" without any significant substance. The nation appeared to me to be stillborn; Ardy's deletion of its forums, ironically or intentionally, put more interest and life into it than it could have ever gathered on its own.

And honestly, I don't really care personally what Elwynn thinks about the issue. I have to decide what I personally think about the issue. And I think, well, there's a really strong case for never giving Ardy admin or mod powers over anything ever again, or at least for a few years or so, but beyond that, meh. A nation that my country never got around to recognizing the independence of had an internal issue that affected them greatly but the scope was somewhat limited by the forum being mostly empty.

I just think it's pretty odd that Shireroth would neuter their own history by sniping pieces out to comply with non-utterance, which seems like it would do more historical damage to micronationalism on the whole than deleting Elwynn's forum ever did or even could do. Sometimes I wonder if you guys think about this sort of thing before you all vote in favor of some reactionary new policy.

But the ninth circle of hell most of all is reserved for traitors. The second round is reserved for traitors to their country.

They lie encased in ice for all eternity, starving...

Dante's Inferno is a good read, but you have to remember that it was less designed for long-term enjoyment and more for political commentary on Dante's day. Dante was pissed about something involving traitors - maybe he had himself been accused at some point? It's been ten years since I heard this story now - and so he decided to make treachery the ultimate sin. Pretty sure it doesn't have any direct biblical connection there.

[Demon of Fides]

Yeah, Iscariot really just served the purpose ordinated for him, he wasn't necessarily that worst human ever.

I just love the inferno, you can't blame a guy for referencing the divine comedy :P

[Scott of Hyperborea]

But the ninth circle of hell most of all is reserved for traitors. The second round is reserved for traitors to their country.

They lie encased in ice for all eternity, starving...

Huh? No, you're thinking of macronational Hell. The ninth circle of micronational Hell was either the one for people who make sites that don't work in most browsers, or the one for people who can't spell "secede" right.

[Demon of Fides]

Okay the fact that someone worked that out is both creepy and spectacular simultaneously.

IT'S CREEPTACULAR!

[Shyriath]

*Reads through the Circles of Hell thread, and is amused*

Well, I've managed to calm myself down, at least slightly. I have to say that I don't really share Scott's perception of Elwynnese intentions in the whole thing, and therefore my characterization of their actions is different, difficult though life was made for Shireroth. But then again, Scott was more deeply involved in pre-rebellion Elwynn than most of us here, so...

At any rate, focusing on the resolution. Several people, inside and outside the Landsraad, have by now made the good point that the non-utterance portion would poke a bunch of holes in our history. That much, I will admit, is not something I want to see no matter how angry I get, and I will seek to amend the resolution to remove it. As well, I will... very slightly change some of the rest.

[Jacobus Loki]

As a quasi-reformed evildoer, (at least when people are watching ) I hope that Ardy comes back with a credible story and sincere repentance. He is unique, and more times than not he is more entertaining than many.

As someone who was banned from Shireroth (more than once?) and since forgiven, I hope that history repeats itself.

PRH's bells, ten years ago in some nations he would have been given a medal for deleting a secessionist government. The fact that he is condemned for it today shows how the hobby has changed.

I'm really conflicted.

KHAAANNN!!!!!

[Kaiser Ometeotl I]

I keep trying to be nice to Elwynn... but Scott keeps reminding me why I should hate and loath that very nation for the backstabbing, foreign-machinatio it is. No matter what it's trying to be. It should have never been. This is why I still don't know if I can support that damnable treaty. I've tried to play nice through this whole thing.. but damn it, this was a farce from the very beginning. I have no respect for that nation, and I lost ALL respect for Ric as a result of his actions.

Grrr. On one hand I want to be "mature" and nice about all this. On the other I want to treat it for what it is, and react accordingly. Elwynn as an independent nation should not exist. If the people now making it up want to create a country they should have gone and made one elsewhere, and not steal Shireroth's land and cultures, nor try to pretend their nation was made as anything other their a foreign plot and Ric being manipulated.

[Harvey Steffke]

I think it's becoming an amazing insult to Ric how much everyone is accusing him of being manipulated, and it is a testament to his character that he has not snapped and starting yelling at people for continuing to bring it up.

[Falkner van der Sluijs]

Your Niftyness, voicing that opinion in a public forum might prove detrimental to our relationship with Elwynn...

[Jonas]

I think it's becoming an amazing insult to Ric how much everyone is accusing him of being manipulated, and it is a testament to his character that he has not snapped and starting yelling at people for continuing to bring it up.

Or it means that he doesn't disagree with what is said.

Your Niftyness, voicing that opinion in a public forum might prove detrimental to our relationship with Elwynn...

We still can say the truth and our opinion, can't we (as long as it stays decent, of course)? I don't think that we can disagree about the impression that Elwynn was a farce, set up by foreign powers, to weaken Shireroth. It's a bit their own fault with announcing ideas as an international army to 'protect' Elwynn. The forum wasn't very active, either (and according to the micronational theory of Harvey they should, as young nation, now have their most active period).
This isn't meant bad, it's just true.

[Falkner van der Sluijs]

It just feels to me that that statement was rather rude, and when we're just about to sign a treaty, it seems like a bad maneuver.

[Kaiser Ometeotl I]

Probably Corey. But I really couldn't keep it to myself any longer. Scott brought it up, and I couldn't deny it.

[Demon of Fides]

*sigh*

What proof do you have that has convinced you so thoroughly, Jonas? What right do you have to post weak conjecture as fact? Does anyone else besides you think that?

I know what your answer is, and so I must ask; How Do You Know?

Not only how do you know if anyone is on your side, but how do you know that what you're saying has the slightest grain of truth in it? If shieroth collapsed today and faded into memory, would you rather they remembered the Kaisers, the Roleplaying, the community? Would you rather we all refer to shieroth as 'that place that stood in Elywnn's way?

If that's the attitude you have, we may as well start now.

[Harvey Steffke]

The forum wasn't very active, either (and according to the micronational theory of Harvey they should, as young nation, now have their most active period).

Yeah. I've been wondering about that. Elwynn's situation represents a contradiction to the theory. I originally thought that breakaway nations would go through a boom period, but that's clearly not the case. Elwynn left Shireroth and started their own country, but they left with close to a decade of baggage, nationality, and culture. There wasn't anything to decide anymore. Essentially, they left a Late nation and formed their own Late nation. Without Shireroth's larger citizen base and general instability that keeps people interested, there wasn't much to do other than look around, see that everyone was in agreement, and drift off to sleep.

[Jonas]

*sigh*

What proof do you have that has convinced you so thoroughly, Jonas? What right do you have to post weak conjecture as fact? Does anyone else besides you think that?

I know what your answer is, and so I must ask; How Do You Know?

Fides, you don't have to react so annoyed (I'm looking for an other word, but it's the best that came in my mind). I'm just expressing my thoughts and the Elwynnese don't need to proof anything to me. But that doesn't mean I can't say what I'm thinking and what's (or at least, was) quite clear: a nation created to undermine Shireroth. It was also very clear that independence wasn't so important for them, as some of them were more then eager to bring foreign forces to the Elwynnese lands. During the talks between Elwynn and the Kaiser they seemed to think about staying around, later it was very clear that they planned to secede from the beginning. And where did they go first? Antica! Weird, because they still had their subforum (and Antica has a treaty that recognises that we have authority over our land, so in fact they ignored and broke the treaty*).
The intents were clear, Fides. Yes, I find it proof even if you disagree. Will this change my mind over Elwynnese independence? No, I don't mind giving them the chance. I trust (and hope) that Daniel will make the young nation develop and grow. Does it change my mind? No, not really. It's like trust: it has to be earned. And like every nation, Elwynn will also have to proof that it can stand alone. You would probably agree if we were talking about a new nation.

*: Should we refer to the Anticans as 'liars' because of that? Or 'Antica, the land which breaks a treaty when it gets the chance to stab another country in the back'? I hope we don't, or this sector will become very (or more?) unpleasant.

Not only how do you know if anyone is on your side, but how do you know that what you're saying has the slightest grain of truth in it? If shieroth collapsed today and faded into memory, would you rather they remembered the Kaisers, the Roleplaying, the community? Would you rather we all refer to shieroth as 'that place that stood in Elywnn's way?

If that's the attitude you have, we may as well start now.

I don't really understand where you're going with this. Do I have to change my thoughts, lie to myself, because of what people could say within some years, or a month or even tomorrow? If (this) one thing changes the legacy of a nation that has existed for years and developed huge amounts of culture, then I feel sorry for our sector and hobby. I'm also not very convinced: I'm quite sure certain actions of Bill (or Harvey) in Jasonia weren't always the good ones (I don't think there are many saints in micronations ), still we are impressed by Jasonia. The same counts for other nations which were around.

Yeah. I've been wondering about that. Elwynn's situation represents a contradiction to the theory. I originally thought that breakaway nations would go through a boom period, but that's clearly not the case. Elwynn left Shireroth and started their own country, but they left with close to a decade of baggage, nationality, and culture. There wasn't anything to decide anymore. Essentially, they left a Late nation and formed their own Late nation. Without Shireroth's larger citizen base and general instability that keeps people interested, there wasn't much to do other than look around, see that everyone was in agreement, and drift off to sleep.

Hopefully they will now get some activity, as Elwynn (Duchy or not) deserves it.
But it's interesting. I only doubt a part of your theory: a young nation, even if it has a culture already, has to develop its political system, develop new (economic and safety) laws, etc.
Elwynn in this case has the huge advantage of having a citizen base. Perhaps one of the disadvantages, which perhaps could be added to your theory, seems to me that the activity is lower because the citizens are already member of several other nations.
(To be clear: this is not meant as an attack to our Elwynnese friends but it just intrigues me).

[Demon of Fides]

Good argument. I particularly like the rebuttal to me playing on your ego.

I cede my point.