Re: Statement of Principle

[Ari Rahikkala]

Could you people *please* stop pretending that Shireroth has been sucky lately because of a conflict between the fine upstanding well-behaving "us" and the trollish disloyal "them"? Because, you know, it's *really* getting old that everyone's running around and ranting about trolling being the cancer that is destroying Shireroth just because, I dunno, Mike happens to be a more earnest person than most.

The Anticans are good people. The Ashkenatzans are good people. The Babkhans are good people. A lot of them think Shirithians are pretty uptight, though, and guess what? Thinly veiled references to banning people for not being civil are not helping!

Here's my proposal for new social rules to base a renewed Shireroth on:

1. Some of us are children and some of us are adults, but it is OK to expect a base level of decency from everyone. If someone, say, happens to hold a morally abhorrent opinion, it should be OK to call them out on it. Even better if the holder of the opinion is ready to argue back.

2. We are here to build something fun together. Everyone's contributions should count. Therefore, there should be a reasonably consistent relationship between the effort someone puts into a contribution to the community and the response to that contribution. For instance (to use a recent event as an example), if someone contributes a journalistic article but does not bother going through enough research to avoid a factual error on the order of, eh, (in context) saying that the vice president of the US heads the Supreme Court... it should probably be made clear that they should do their research more carefully next time.

3. If someone acts in a bad way, you should call that specific person out for that specific behaviour, rather than nag at a vague group of people for some general mistake. (this rule is a favourite of mine because it's one that I've been breaking constantly lately -- so, to fix my first paragraph over there, I call out Jake, Erik, Jonas, and Scott specifically. Fides gets to get away with voting Aye on http://shireroth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14018 because I don't think he's aware of all of the strife and politics related to it.)

4. If you are going to post a set of social rules, don't do it while sitting in a bus that's going to leave in a couple of minutes and so go away from local wireless coverage. These things usually work better if you have time to edit and think about them... oops!

[Scott of Hyperborea]

That is a whole lot of uses of the pronouns "us" and "we" to refer to Shirerithians in that post.

[more complete response later, based on the Bus Principle]

[Jonas]

I didn't really understand point 4... but: Ari, we're not saying that Anticans, Babkhans, Ashkenatzim (not Ashkenatzans ) aren't nice people. It's needless to say that most of them are. This is also not just about saying that everything is the fault of trolling, but some of us have had it with a certain kind of remarks like "you suck". That kind of behaviour should just not be accepted in Shirerithian society. You can say whatever you want, but in my opinion it's a lot better if we don't have to handle with that kind of things (or at least show them those who do it that we don't permit it here).

Honestly, I don't see where you're going with this as it's meant as a warning for the future and also the first, small step for a better Shireroth. Look to Daniel, he is part of the 'trollish' disloyal "them", but I have never see him trolling. While some others have.
Excuse me if I want to support a proposal in which we state that we don't like that kind behaviour (anymore). We recently made it very clear to Mike. It's perhaps just a formality, but perhaps it makes some of the visitors and citizens clear that we don't permit it anymore.

[Demon of Fides]

On point three, which seems to be the only point I'm qualified to talk about (ironically). While I haven't had dealings with the other two, I was an Antican for about a month. It was bad enough for me to leave when I was on their good side, let alone now I'm associated with Shireroth.

"The Imperial Republic is a micronation, a community and ideally a place for personal enjoyment and growth." I agree with that wholly. I can go through every sentence in there and agree with it. I see no particular discrimination against any single nation or group of nations.

I see the possibility for discrimination, but such discrimination is not inherit in the bill, therefore I cannot vote against it. The principle is sound, and therefore I do not wish to Abstain.

[Harvey Steffke]

The support that new proposal is getting shatters any hope I had that Shireroth is trying to be less isolationist these days. Sigh, you guys make it so HARD sometimes...

[Jonas]

The support that new proposal is getting shatters any hope I had that Shireroth is trying to be less isolationist these days. Sigh, you guys make it so HARD sometimes...

I'm not really getting the link between isolationism and the statement, please explain to me.

[Harvey Steffke]

What, really? Isn't the entire purpose of this statement to say that you're sick of outsiders coming in here and causin' trouble? I can't think of any possible use that statement could have OTHER than that. Ari completely hit it on the head here. I wasn't going to say anything, because I believe that you deserve whatever hot water you get yourselves in, but since he made the thread, well okay.

certain behaviors are unacceptable by those that may visit here, and even attempt to call Shireroth their home.

You're only taking a "dim view" on the poor behavior of "those that may visit here", ie outsiders, ie me now I suppose. It's worded in a way that it's assuming that all the problems in this country are now outside your borders and that every current citizen is an angel. And that "even attempt to call Shireroth their home" line... wow. Way to say you basically hate people with dual citizenship that put another country higher. Makes me really happy I dropped my Shireroth dual citizenship now.

Basically, it's sad and it's frustrating that this community has gotten so touchy and weak that they have to even come up with notices like this. It's sort of like how packages of peanuts have to say "Warning: contains nuts" now, just to protect people from themselves. Shouldn't we be getting more mature over time, not less? Shouldn't we be taking down notices like this that may have been necessary when we were basically kids, not putting more up as a reactionary policy?

I had to be on pins and needles during the whole "that's not a tranquil thing to say" business a while back. I'm outspoken, not as much as Mike, but somewhat. And I'm not of the mindset to play games with Shireroth's progressive discipline plan. The first "friendly reminder" I get is the day I just logout of Shireroth's boards for a month or two.

[Jonas]

What, really? Isn't the entire purpose of this statement to say that you're sick of outsiders coming in here and causin' trouble? I can't think of any possible use that statement could have OTHER than that.

I think you misunderstand, Harvey. The statement is written to avoid, like said before, statements as 'you suck' which are only meant to upset people. It's not meant to throw people out who don't agree with others.

If it makes you feel better and can avoid concerns from other foreigners, then I would love to amend it to make very clear that it also counts for our own citizenry (which is, of course, the case), even if we already agreed among ourselves to behave (while we can't agree that with everyone who just comes here as a visitor).

And that "even attempt to call Shireroth their home" line... wow. Way to say you basically hate people with dual citizenship that put another country higher. Makes me really happy I dropped my Shireroth dual citizenship now.

I'm getting the feeling you really want to start an argument based on your emotions, Harvey, as that's clearly not the point behind it. There are several Shirerithians with dual citizenship and we have never hated each other for putting a nation higher. Look to Andreas, who is very respected and likened while he clearly chosed for Gralus and Nelaga because they need his energy and time more. That's no problem.

Basically, it's sad and it's frustrating that this community has gotten so touchy and weak that they have to even come up with notices like this. It's sort of like how packages of peanuts have to say "Warning: contains nuts" now, just to protect people from themselves. Shouldn't we be getting more mature over time, not less? Shouldn't we be taking down notices like this that may have been necessary when we were basically kids, not putting more up as a reactionary policy?

It's indeed sad and frustrating that such guide lines are necessary, but history has proven it several time: on the internet most adults behave as kids. Some people just love to bash others, try to upset them, etc.
Shireroth tries to show it doesn't agree with that kind of things. And you can say what you want about Mike his outspokenness, but we should have interfered much earlier when he was behaving like a kid (which doesn't mean we should have banned him). This statement is just a paper on which we declare we disagree with that kind of behaviour.

With all respect, I get more and more the feeling that people try to nitpick on Shirerithian policies (or are very tense and see things that aren't there or were never meant to be like that).
e.g.: One day there will come someone who will ask that we approve a proposal to give all our Benacian land to country X, and if we don't agree you all will act furious and say: "It's always the same with them!".
But before you react upset about this: I'm not saying that's what you are up to, I have no problem with this 'outsiders' view. It's good you told us what you see as a potential problem, it's perhaps (indeed) better to amend it a bit. With that I mean expand it, to clearly include our citizens (however, we also visit our nation's forum and we attempt to call this our home, so de facto it already includes us).

[Kaiser Ometeotl I]

Harvey, while I generally respect your opinion, this does kinda feel like either you've completely misunderstood our intention, or your just trying to make it into something it isn't. It seems like nothing we do can ever please you. We can even do exactly what you tell us, and I'm sure suddenly its a sign of how "Shireroth never changes". We can do anything or everything other nations do, and suddenly it seems in your eyes it's a sign of the decay of Shireroth.. or some other similar phrase we get from you often.

1. It's not a law. There is no required actions. There is no clear orders to do anything. It's worded vaguely and as a "statement", and a suggestion. It even says that things should be documented, and temporary, and that there can be extenuating circumstances.

2. It does speak of both citizens and non-citizens, it doesn't even make ANY mention of duel citizenship. You added that line. As you added the inference to isolationism.

3. Yes, I would LOVE it if micronations had matured to the point when statements like these were not needed, sadly, they obviously are still needed. We are sick of "you suck" and "this is stupid" two line, or less, posts, just bashing people. Is everyone gonna get it right, no. Do we need to treat each other like crap.. no. We should be trying to encourage people, not treat them like crap. Or is Micronations only for geniuses like you and Mike, who know everything and have all the greatest skills.

And the paper is the perfect example. It's generally agreed that article was flawed. And many of us said so, pointed out the errors, but encouraged him. Mike strolls in, says a few rude nonconstructive comments, and strolls out. Why should we put up with that? Both of them are non-cits, but I much rather Elliot, even if he does make mistakes, over Mike who makes people feel like crap.

If anything, this is about the opposite of isolation, it's about creating an open community were people can feel welcome, and free some immaturity and ridicule. Hell, I had enough of that when I was younger, and even now in Micronations. So if it is "weak" as you say to want to be treated with respect, decency and to hang out in a friendly environment, then I'll gladly proclaim that I am weak, and invite everyone else who's weak to come on over, we'll have a party and a good time.

When I joined micronations I was unpopular, shy and kinda an outcast. I feel this continues to be the base population of micronations, and even the internet. This isn't something we should forget so we can allow a few people to act like those many are trying to flee when they come to the net and micronations.

Now, perhaps we can rephrase the statement to make it clear it isn't about just non-citizens, I thought we had done that, but maybe we need to phrase it in such a way that you can't interpret it to mean anything other, but still keep the feel of the wording.

Now, I have to go to work.

[Harvey Steffke]

Guh, forgot I was the new scapegoat. My mistake in posting here at all. As you were, then.

[Ari Rahikkala]

That is a whole lot of uses of the pronouns "us" and "we" to refer to Shirerithians in that post.

Quite intentional, sir (I'm still not going to reimmigrate though). I'm gonna head into the sauna and see if I have useful new stuff to add to this thread when I return.

[Jacobus Loki]

We just want a nice place. Everybody is welcome to visit, and within the tri-cit limits, to immigrate. No one is being kept out. That is not our intention.

Some say that "you never change", and then complain from the sidelines when we make new guidelines for change.

[Ari Rahikkala]

1. It's not a law. There is no required actions. There is no clear orders to do anything. It's worded vaguely and as a "statement", and a suggestion. It even says that things should be documented, and temporary, and that there can be extenuating circumstances.

There's no "not really a law" about it. Suppose the statement passes in its present form. What's the chance that someone would get their first strike, and second strike, and third strike, and on their third strike had their posting ability restricted? Now suppose the statement was rewritten to clearly be a lawbook amendment. What's the chance of that happening now? Did it change?

Basically, it's sad and it's frustrating that this community has gotten so touchy and weak that they have to even come up with notices like this. It's sort of like how packages of peanuts have to say "Warning: contains nuts" now, just to protect people from themselves. Shouldn't we be getting more mature over time, not less? Shouldn't we be taking down notices like this that may have been necessary when we were basically kids, not putting more up as a reactionary policy?

This. We *can* get along. #etd does it (I had a nice little chat with Icebreaker about just how gracefully we do it, in fact). Antica does it. A hell of a lot of places do it: Just... getting along, even in an atmosphere where arguing and outspokenness (or, in #etd's case, verbal abuse and manipulation) are considered par for the course. Hell, we *are* getting along even in here. The "lately" in the OP really means something like a time period of several months... starting from a few weeks ago. Erik was right http://nelaga.info/viewtopic.php?p=9807#p9807 - Shireroth has gotten less angry and angsty lately.

Which is why the Statement is a step in the wrong direction. It's a step away from being a community of mature people who get along with each other without resorting to legalism. Mike got his community censure and even a Kaiserial slap on the wrist - why go and make a law now?

(plus, there's the separate political issue that the statement *does* kinda read like it's about "us" vs "them". Not "citizens" vs "non-citizens", since certainly Scott and probably I would be considered to be among "us", and I'm pretty sure Mike and Harvey were still "them" even when they were citizens. I'm not so concerned about this issue, except that I do think it's pretty bad advertising for Shireroth how eagerly people agreed on it.)

[Jacobus Loki]

Amendments are being considered.

(pesky ferriners)

[Nithi Kirenion]

Minister Jacobus' proposal is noble in intent, but I do not know if harmony can be legislated. If evil came with a glowing sign that said EVIL, one would not need legislation; if there is no glowing sign, and it looks fair to some but foul to others, then the legislation could not be interpreted and enforced. So I fear such a law is fated to be a rallying cry for certain sentiments but otherwise ineffective.

But neither can I agree with Mr. Rahikkala's interpretation of the situation.

You ask for names, but I would not feed the fundamental attribution error. I don't think what has happened is a function of personalities alone. It's a function of ancient grudges, political differences, a system that feeds frustration, a few people who enjoy stirring up trouble, and an ethos that emo is acceptable. It's a function of past feuds that leave everyone tired and angry and engender future feuds. And let us not forget that this is not entirely a horrible mistake. Other countries have had it in for Shireroth for a long time, and you have heard as well as I the rumors that foreigners have deliberately been coming to Shireroth and trying to make Shirerithians miserable in the hope of driving them away and weakening the nation. Other countries have a few of these factors; Shireroth has all of them.

A solution that works for Babkha or for #etd will not necessarily work for Shireroth. People are not interchangeable parts, and different people need communities with different norms. There is a place for Aster's philosophy of micronations, and there is a place for Hypatia's Mom's philosophy of micronations, but those two places are very far away and separated by a range of impassable mountains. And though there are people who thrive in an environment of personal insults, constant put-downs, and temper tantrums at the slightest inconvenience, I cannot automatically transform into such a person, and even if I could, it is my personal choice not to try.

For the past several months, Shireroth has had too many people who are unhappy with each other's opinions and with each other's strategies for dealing with opinions. As a result, the vast majority of people have been unhappy. Certainly Ryan, Harvey, Elliot, Malliki, Harvey, Scott, and yourself - the emigrants - have been unhappy, and even those who stayed around seemed upset with the direction of the country. Unhappiness fed upon unhappiness like a serpent eating its own tail, and so everyone became hypervigilant, looking for the slightest insult or sign that their personal enemies were behaving dishonorably. The country seethed in the time of Anandja II, affected a transparently artificial tranquility during the reign of Ikol II, and finally came to the brink of collapse under B'Caw. All this you saw, and part of it you were.

Ometeotl has been a fantastic Kaiser, but it was no action of his that arrested the fall of the Empire. It was the emigration of a small group of people who attracted drama - and sadly, I must include a Hyperborean among their number. With these few gone, everything became quiet, the conflicts died down, and Shireroth finally has a bit of pride and self-respect back after so long.

You would undo these gains in favor of a different solution - the solution that everyone who was unhappy before should just stop being unhappy. I am pretty sure that's not how things work.

[Andreas the Wise]

Guh, forgot I was the new scapegoat. My mistake in posting here at all. As you were, then.

Thanks for your second post. It was helpful to see how people outside the nation viewed this. As someone involved in the rough idea of the proposal, though not it's exact wording, I appreciate being told that it comes across very different from the way it is intended. Thank you for that. That comment was helpful.

Skimming Erik and Jonas' post, I didn't feel that they were making you out as the new scapegoat. Yes, they made comments directed at you personally; but much of their post was in response to the opinion expressed by you and not to anything of Harvey as a person. I echo their calls that your interpretation was quite different from what we intended. That's not a bad thing (in a moral sense - in a practical sense it's unfortunate because it means we need to reword it), but it's a useful piece of information for us to know. We're humans, we're not perfect, and I wouldn't try to say that they responded in the most loving way possible; but I don't feel they were taking you as a scapegoat.

If it's helpful (since it hasn't quite been done in this topic) it might be worth re-expressing the spirit this statement was crafted in. There was a time, particularly when Carol was around, when as a general rule we were happy and didn't make too many personal attacks on eachother. There was a time after that when Shireroth moved to a place and culture where such attacks were more common and made people feel uncomfortable. Those of us who have remained agree wholeheartedly that we preferred the first time. We're trying to live like that now, and I think we're succeeding. But how do we stay in the first time and avoid drifting into the second time again? That's where this statement comes in.

Instead of being nice to people and just letting it go, we're making it clear (in a vague and general way) that there is a line to be drawn, and outlining clear consequences for crossing it. Sakat knows you can't legislate morality or personality. We're not trying to. All we want are guidelines as a community to acceptable behaviour and acceptable penalties for crossing it. This avoids the danger of either nothing happening or someone getting a big Imperial Smackdown all at once and saying "How did I deserve this?" It's not meant to be legalistic. And it's certainly meant to apply to our citizens, just as much (if not more) than it applies to others. At least, that's my understanding of it.

You're all intelligent, educated gentleman, and can see the difference between support, constructive criticism and unhelpful posting. I don't think I need to explain it to you. This statement is only about unhelpful posting; not preventing legitimate criticism.

[Harvey Steffke]

If you were anyone besides Andreas, I'd be certain you were being sarcastic. And even though you ARE Andreas, I still can't be 100% sure you're not being sarcastic.



I'm concerned with things like

I'm getting the feeling you really want to start an argument based on your emotions, Harvey

and

Harvey, while I generally respect your opinion, this does kinda feel like either you've completely misunderstood our intention, or your just trying to make it into something it isn't. It seems like nothing we do can ever please you. We can even do exactly what you tell us, and I'm sure suddenly its a sign of how "Shireroth never changes". We can do anything or everything other nations do, and suddenly it seems in your eyes it's a sign of the decay of Shireroth.. or some other similar phrase we get from you often.

which are accusations, albeit rather polite ones, that I'm just doing this for the hell of it to cause trouble. I'm not. It would be easy for me to just not speak up in cases like this and let Shireroth feel good about setting an unfriendly foreign policy. But letting Shireroth set an unfriendly foreign policy isn't something that suits me right now, as I'd much rather see a friendly, socially adjusted, liberal, not stuck on their ego Shireroth (I'm not going to get all four, but one at a time isn't so terrible, and there's been real gains in those areas lately) so I'm here trying to say my peace.

Look, my opinion is that passing the statement is a bad move. All other civilized nations can handle disruptions in normal, healthy ways. We don't need to post statements to make ourselves feel better and neither do you. I agree with Scott when he says

the solution that everyone who was unhappy before should just stop being unhappy. I am pretty sure that's not how things work.

(though ironically that was the very stance he took for years, but never mind that) but this community is so darn small that all it takes is a low single-digit people acting different to change the outlook of an entire sector. Maybe you can't stop people from occasionally being unhappy, but this statement of yours sure won't do it either, so I don't know what you have to gain by this. I can't stop you from doing if you really want to (couldn't even if I was a citizen anyway) and I don't want to argue about it really so there ya go.

[Kaiser Ometeotl I]

We aren't asking people to "stop being unhappy" We are asking people to not make other people unhappy just for some moment of thrill or something. We aren't trying to make an unfriendly foreign policy. I don't really see how this is even remotely unfriendly. We're asking people to behave themselves.

I don't have the time for a long post, now will I have time for a few days. Just know I'm not making you a scapegoat Harvey. Sometimes you are kinda abrasive, but I never consider you outright rude or assholish. You never come in and call people names needlessly. We aren't trying to blame anything on you. We just don't agree with your interpretation of this. As far as I know, I don't think anyone even thinks this will ever even apply to you.

I admit, passing this statement does make me feel better. It makes me feel that we've made it clear that we want Shireroth to be as inclusive as possible. We want Shireroth to be a place people can come and feel safe from persecution, bullying and other behavior of that nature. And Honestly I think it may be needed. Hell, I got chased out of #micronations. I got sick of being treated like crap, kicked, banned and generally not even allowed to be there by some arbitrary set of rules, with no one standing up for me. I don't want Shireroth to get that way. I want to stand up for people. I like that we as a community are coming together and saying "Here's a line. We don't care what you say, or what you believe, but there is a line. A malleable line, but a line none the less."

And since it'll come up. Yes. Mike is a person I have in mind when I think of people who crossed that line. When he started here I found him abrasive, but tolerable. I liked him, still think he's a good micronationalist, but his abrasiveness kinda went to far. Now he shows up long enough to say "You suck" to someone, instead of something more constructive, even if they translate to "I don't like what you did", either way. That's not something I like around. I don't like being treated that way, and I don't want others treated that way. I'm not trying to blame Mike for all our troubles, just making that clear. But I am saying he's an example of what I started to dislike in Shireroth, and outside.

Anyhoo, Let's see if we can fix the wording, and make out intents clear, and make it clear we openly welcome anyone and everyone. We only ask you treat people with respect.

[Icebreaker]

BLAH BLAH BLAH, HEY SCOTT!!!

SINCE #ETD WAS BROUGHT UP HERE, I'VE BEEN THINKING: CAN WE GET YOU TO HANG OUT IN THERE FOR A WEEK OR SO? VIEW IT AS A PSYCHOLOGY EXPERIMENT - YOU'LL CERTAINLY LEARN A BIT MORE ABOUT HUMAN BEHAVIOR, AND IF NOTHING ELSE YOU'LL LEARN HOW IT'S POSSIBLE FOR PEOPLE TO GET ALONG SPLENDIDLY WHILE INSULTING EACH OTHER TO THE MAX.

TWO PREREQUISITES OF COURSE: YOU'LL HAVE TO IDLE THERE FOR THE WHOLE WEEK, AND YOU'LL PROBABLY WANT TO HAVE AUTOREJOIN. I CAN GIVE YOU A PERSISTENT ACCOUNT ON MY LINUX SERVER FOR THIS PROJECT IF YOU LIKE (WE HAVE A GIRL FROM HELSINKI THAT DOES THE SAME THING).

IN RETURN, ME OR ARI WILL DO WHATEVER DUMB THING YOU WANT FOR A WEEK (HAVEN'T ACTUALLY ASKED ARI ABOUT THIS, BUT HE'LL AGREE ANYWAY).

[Demon of Fides]

STOP!

Now I have your attention: Next post in this thread has to be happy. We're just descending into shouting, which ironically enough is what the statement tried to prevent.

Now please, let's all remember that sarcasm transfers excellently through text, in fact; it sometimes pops out of no where and ambushes us. C'mon guys, we're all friends here, if we weren't, we wouldn't be on this forum together.

[Ari Rahikkala]

Well, Scott is... right, actually. And, given that and what Erik said... well, my biggest remaining problem with the statement is that it's written in flowery and vague language which, as you'll note, tends to allow for interpretations that are far less good than what you intended. I read both "those that may visit here, and even attempt to call Shireroth their home" and Jonas's suggested amendment as basically being about "those other people". Also, it specifies a process where you get these kinda semi-formal warnings before you're temporarily banned (or something) but not who actually gives those warnings out. Don't you think it's important to specify that? We are talking about banning people here, you know. That's one thing in the statement that you can only really read one way. I would prefer that there not be a process for banning people for being assholes, but if there is, it should at least be clear what the process is.

In other words: Inside this vague, flowery, poorly defined, quite possibly unfair statement, there is a clear law with clear consequences for well-specified actions struggling to get out. Don't you think it would be a good idea to let it free?



Also!!! (though off-topic)

<@ari> icebreaker: WHY DIDN'T WE ASK FOR SCOTT TO JOIN #ETD SOONER
<@icebreaker> UNSURE, BUT HE'S GONNA IGNORE IT UNLESS YOU CHIP IN
<@icebreaker> JUST GOT HOME, PRETTY DRUNK, SO I LEAVE IT IN YOUR HANDS
<@ari> I SHALL!

Though obviously the dumb thing I'd be willing to do has to be on the same level of effort as reading #etd.

[Andreas the Wise]

If you were anyone besides Andreas, I'd be certain you were being sarcastic. And even though you ARE Andreas, I still can't be 100% sure you're not being sarcastic.

I use sarcasm sometimes, but not that often. In this case, I'm quite serious - I have a high opinion of your, Scott's and Ari's intelligence.

[Ari Rahikkala]

Actually, hell, since I'm procrastinating on stuff anyway, I might as well go ahead and type it out... (fun fact: Doing something like this without a proper penal law to base it on is... kinda weird. No, we don't actually want a penal law.)

A new section, "Trolling", shall be added to chapter XII (laws of the land) of the Imperial Code of Law:

It is forbidden to insult people, or their ideas, creations, or background on the Message Board of Shireroth. Insulting and disruptive behaviour shall be defined as trolling.

A new subsection, "Regulation of conduct on the forums" shall be added to section D (forums) of chapter VIII (electronic holdings):

a. The Board Administrators shall regulate conduct on the Message Board of Shireroth.
b. If an individual engages in trolling, the Board Administrators have a duty to give zir a notice that zir behaviour is not acceptable.
c. If zie continues to behave unacceptably, within no more than six months of the last incident, the Board Administrators may, at their discretion, impose stricter correctional measures. These include warnings, openly documented editing of the posts in question to remove the offending material, and temporary banning for up to a week at a time for a single incident.

Just as a reminder, the Board Administrators are the Kaiser, the MiniInt, Erik, Scott and me. Also, I didn't put in a proceduce for appealing, but it would make sense to have one so that you can complain to the Imperial Judex or something. (other amendments are naturally also welcome, there probably were issues I didn't think of there)

Anyway, the point! Is! That this is what the Landsraad should be working on: Clear rules, clear procedures, someone actually in *charge*, clear limits on how far the people in charge can go in enforcing the law. No prejudgment of the frightening "those", no "it is suggested" or "the Landsraad encourages" for what is obviously meant to be a law, no "dim view" of something that the intent is to just stop from happening.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

Icebreaker: Agreed in principle, but if I'm just going to be idling there and not chatting, wouldn't it be easier for everyone if you just got a log of a week's worth of #etd and sent it to me?

[Ari Rahikkala]

Wouldn't be the same thing, chances are your presence will affect at least Eli's behaviour in... interesting ways.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

All right, you can PM me the information for the account Icebreaker set up. Am I absolutely forbidden from talking, or would it just be a terrible, terrible idea?

PS: I am not a board administrator.

[Ari Rahikkala]

PS: I am not a board administrator.

The Imperial Code of Law says you are. If that has changed I guess the law should be changed . Granted, the law also says that the board is still hosted at shireroth.kuroshiro.net (though at least it took into account that the hosting location might change).

[Icebreaker]

Icebreaker: Agreed in principle, but if I'm just going to be idling there and not chatting, wouldn't it be easier for everyone if you just got a log of a week's worth of #etd and sent it to me?

OH NO, ACTUALLY IT WOULD BE GREAT IF YOU SPOKE UP. YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS ARE WELCOME! I JUST WANTED TO NOTE THAT YOU'RE NOT *REQUIRED* TO TALK - BUT THERE'S NO REASON TO ISOLATE YOURSELF BEHIND A GLASS WALL IF YOU DON'T WANT TO.

[Jacobus Loki]

With all respect, I'm opposed to codifying and and making "laws" about this. Any "law" can be abused and circumvented.

That's why it's in the form of a resolution, a "sense of the community" type of thing.

[Kaiser Ometeotl I]

I think the point of this was to not create a law, cause laws are easily abused. We didn't want to have to create a system where people have to agree on everything and be all "tranquil". We just want people to be civil in their anger, or general behavior. Also, I thought we agreed "trolling" was the wrong word?