Changes in who can vote.

[Erik Mortis]

Due to the passing of the Lite Vegetable Broth Act of 3968 the following people can vote in the Landsraad with the following votes. Remember, when casting a vote you MUST state how many votes you have to vote with, and must vote with them all or not at all.

Patricians (5 Votes)
-Erik Mortis
-Daniel Farewell
-Andreas the Wise

Equestrians (2 votes)
-Greg Russel
-Jonas
-Jacobus Loki

Civitas (1 vote)
--None--

This doubles the size of the voting nobles in the Landsraad and brings the total number of castable votes to 21.

[Kaiser Ikol II]

Can someone explain why Jonas and Jacobus are Equestrians? I'd like to start declaring new nonhereditary nobles as soon as the Nomenclature Act passes, but I want to know what these two are doing first.

My understanding was that Andreas is now head of House Kildare and Jonas has no title, and that Jacobus was stripped of his titles by Kaiseress Anandja.

[Malliki Tosha]

Anandja demoted Jacobus to Equestrian level, but I think he renounced his title.

Jonas should have no title since the Barony is hereditary. Andreas inherited the title and is now a Margrave and Baron. Perhaps we should allow people that hold multiple titles to designate a member of their House to hold the lesser title as a courtesy one?

[Andreas the Wise]

Jacobus is now Emissary to the Landsraad for House Kildare, something I'd been meaning to do as soon as this legislation came in. Before that, technically I held two titles. As such, putting Jonas on there is an oversight of Eriks.

[Erik Mortis]

I went by the list in the Kaiser's Court. So I take no responsibility for that being off. I don't keep track of titles, not my job. So if the Kaiser's records are wrong, my statement will be wrong.

I'll make the proper changes as Ast. MiniInt

[Malliki Tosha]

Andreas, you still hold two titles. Emissary is not a noble title. Is he emissary for you as Margrave or for you as Baron or as both?

[Erik Mortis]

hmmm. Does that mean Andreas can vote with both titles worth of votes? I was under the view that the higher title would supersede the lower. Just so people know, till we get a law saying otherwise, I only count the votes for the highest title. This will mean that Jake, though an Emissary will only get to cast votes for the Margrave title. The Baron title is considered suspended for voting.

At least this is all how I'll be handling it as Praetor till we get a law working it out formally. I'll look into writing such a law tonight, or tomorrow.

[Erik Mortis]

BTW: I don't think Jake ever gave up his title of Thane...

[Andreas the Wise]

Andreas, you still hold two titles. Emissary is not a noble title. Is he emissary for you as Margrave or for you as Baron or as both?

I CAN PUT IN AN EMISSARY AS MARGRAVE?????!???!??!?!?!?!?

I didn't know that. And it actually sounds complete nonsense to me. It's a non-hereditary title. The sort of title that is granted to a particular person for their particular efforts. As such it seems pretty weird that they could put in an emissary. Surely emissary is only for voting hereditary titles, where you represent a House, not yourself?

The emissary position I granted is for the vote as Baron, because I said he is the emissary for House Kildare. I am not (and cannot be) a Margrave for Kildare, only a Margrave in Melangia. That and the decree made it fairly clear.

And Erik, the multiple title acts allows people to hold multiple titles. Combined with the fact that to avoid me voting with two titles but not to waste Kildare's rightful vote, I gave the emissaryship to another Kildarian I believed without a title so that it would be one person voting with each title's worth of votes, I would consider it to be specifically against Kildare to consider that I hold two titles and therefore Kildare's vote is 'wasted'. If I personally tried to hold both, maybe, but since it was fine before for Jonas to have a voice and me to have a completely separate title, I see no reason why I can't have the title and give someone else the now upgrade voice if I happen to be Head. In practical terms it puts us in exactly the same voting position as we would be if I weren't the head; it just means I'm responsible for keeping my house loyal and not Jake. But if you'd really prefer Jake ...

[Malliki Tosha]

As far as I know, anyone with votes can appoint an Emissary.

This is a problem that needs to be handled by the Landsraad. If we look to the British system pre-1999, the son of a Peer sitting in the House of Lords could use his father's auxiliary title (lesser title) as his own, but would not gain access to the House of Lords with it. It's called a courtesy title.

Perhaps the Kaiser should start with those appointments he wanted so we can all get a voice in the Landsraad? That was the point, wasn't it?

Also, perhaps the problem with multiple votes in one person could be handled in the Procedures instead of the LB?

[Andreas the Wise]

BTW: I don't think Jake ever gave up his title of Thane...

If that is the case, then I didn't know that and I'll give the emissaryship to Corey. The principle still stands.

[Malliki Tosha]

I don't like the fact that Kildare has, at the moment, 9 votes compared to Mortis' 5.

[Erik Mortis]

Neither do I.

[Malliki Tosha]

This isn't really a question for the Judex either, it's a legislative issue. The Procedures and/or the LB needs to be amended.

[Jonas]

Neither do I.

Boohoohoo.

[Erik Mortis]

You guys should have only had 1 vote, on equal standing as everyone else. Now you have the largest voting block.... That needed fixing.

[Andreas the Wise]

You guys should have only had 1 vote, on equal standing as everyone else. Now you have the largest voting block.... That needed fixing.

You make it sound like you're doing this entirely for House Politics and not for the good of the nation. Which is not that great if you're trying to get other people to support you.

[Erik Mortis]

I'm doing it for both.

One house should not have that much power.

[Andreas the Wise]

Ok, I'll resign myself to the fact that I will never, ever understand how you understand the House system.

[Jonas]

Ok, I'll resign myself to the fact that I will never, ever understand how you understand the House system.

His interpretation of the House System is probably: House Mortis = GREATEST AND MOST POWERFUL!

(Joking... just joking... )

[Andreas the Wise]

No, I was thinking more about representations of merit and individual/house power rising and falling and stuff. But don't worry. It's not going to cause the death of Shireroth if it isn't set up perfectly. It'd just make things easier.

[Jacobus Loki]

So if a House/Duchy/Whatchamacallit can't build up Landsraad power, why not just go back to one House/Duchy/Whatchamacallit, one vote.

Or give each H/D/W "X" votes, and let the Duke divide them among his nobles as he sees fit?

[Malliki Tosha]

You can build up Landsraad power by getting more people in your House and by making sure said people get higher titles. I don't however see why we have to allow people to hold multiple titles they can vote with.

[Kaiser Ikol II]

I intend to raise Thane-Palatines to Baron-Palatines if they do something exceptionally awesome. That would be a good way to increase your House power.

[Erik Mortis]

So.. now the more people in your house.. the more voting power it has... this wasn't what I had in mind....

[Kaiser Ikol II]

Well, productive people - we still have quite a few people who haven't earned Thane positions. It's more a meritocracy than a democracy.

What was what you had in mind with the non-hereditary titles, then?

[Malliki Tosha]

Erik, if you can't be bothered to write down what you had in mind in, for example, the DecreeBook, you can't expect people to know about it. I like this. If you do stuff for Shireroth, you get to vote in the Landsraad.

[Erik Mortis]

I didn't intend for population to be give power directly in the Landsraad. I didn't say it.. cause I didn't built the system that way. I had no idea people would have a sudden turn around in one reign and want democracy. (Anyone remember me asking about expanding the Landsraad, and how everyone told me it was a terrible idea...)

[Malliki Tosha]

This is far from democracy, Erik. I also think that people should reassess the myth that Shireroth is not a democracy.

[Erik Mortis]

I just meant, I didn't intend house size to be directly proportional to Landsraad power. Influence maybe. But not directly linked.