Economic Opt Out Proposal

[Andreas the Wise]

Chapter XII: Economy

I. Opt-Out
1. Shirithian citizens may elect to opt out of the economy.
a. They do so by informing MiniTrade of their intent to opt out.
b. In doing so, they surrender all their existing economic assets (as recorded in the Official Bank in section E) to the Shirithian government.

2. Citizens who have opted out of the economy are exempt from all taxes, fines and other economic costs; and ineligible for all bounties and other economic benefits. Citizens are also no longer eligible to criticise the involvement of the economy in other areas of the nation.

3. In areas of the nation which include the economy, specific provisions will be included for how citizens who are opted out are counted.

4. MiniTrade shall maintain a list of all opted out citizens.

May not be worded ideally and the Kaiseress probably won't like section 3 being put in the lawbook, but should capture the basic gist of the idea. Going through our current legislation in Chapter XII, them not being involved and not excluded is all included in section 2 of this (ie them not paying taxes). They can't be in a guild; but the only purpose to be in a guild is to be able to charge for your services - ergo, unnecessary. I don't think we have any other economic legislation.

[Erik Mortis]

They can't buy titles now either. But they also can't lose land to taxes.

I see this as the death of the economy.

Maybe it was a bad idea. (the repercussions of this comment are the death of the SCUE and the end of the bank software)

[Andreas the Wise]

If it's only Jake and Harvey and it stops them complaining and lets the rest of us get on with the economy, it should be fine.

[Kaiseress Anandja II]

It's hard to force people to do stuff they don't want to.

[Scott of Hyperborea]

I don't really like banning people from criticizing something. Like, what if we pass a law that no one can post on the forum without paying a 5E "processing fee"? Harvey's not allowed to complain about that? It seems like exactly the sort of thing Harvey *should* be complaining about. Hopefully we'll never do anything quite that stupid, but things like selling titles for cash, selling rec-armies, and so on bring up some of the same issues.

Have we ever considered setting taxes as a percent, eg 20% of your wealth? In that case, we can tax everyone, but anyone with 0E pays 0 taxes.

[Andreas the Wise]

I don't really like banning people from criticizing something. Like, what if we pass a law that no one can post on the forum without paying a 5E "processing fee"? Harvey's not allowed to complain about that? It seems like exactly the sort of thing Harvey *should* be complaining about. Hopefully we'll never do anything quite that stupid, but things like selling titles for cash, selling rec-armies, and so on bring up some of the same issues.

If you look at it carefully, or the discussion with Harvey in Mortis, you will notice that with those opting out losing the right to complain comes the responsibility for us adding stuff to the economy to ensure that we either only add it to economic areas (which they don't care about by definition), or we provide a clause that allows them to still do the thing in another way (eg in recwars, give them a set average army size). Whereas if they're going to opt out and still complain about everything, I see no point in us bothering to provide an opt out option.

I've lost my interest in percentage based taxes. If you want to, sure, but know that you then can't tax non-Shirithian accounts (whereas if you say "You have to pay amount x because you're a citizen/noble/landowner, we don't care how much money you have", then people still have to pay it).

[Jacobus Loki]

My only problem was forcing people into the economy. I'm looking forward to fund-raising.

[Erik Mortis]

Even though this bill would take away much of the need for the Jacobus Fund?

[Jacobus Loki]

However it works out. I doubt it will eliminate the desire for free money.

[Jonas]

However it works out. I doubt it will eliminate the desire for free money.

I need free money...

[Andreas the Wise]

If Jake and Harvey aren't super keen for a big "Opt Out" button anymore then I can drop this proposal. It depends on the net utility of having it in the lawbook (taking into account both number and strength of feeling).

[Jacobus Loki]

I don't need a "big opt" out button.

[Kaiser Ikol II]

*head explodes*

[Jacobus Loki]

I do not object to a big opt out button, either. As I laerned in the time of Loki III, if an economy is regulated in a spirit of fun, and messed with occasionally, I don't mind. I usually give away all of my erb, anyway.

Erik, Andreas and others have done a lot of work on it, and other nations use it as well, so let those so inclined have fun. It's like the military. As long as there is no force, no penalty, I don't object.

Try to draft people into either, and my opinion changes.

[Erik Mortis]

I'm trying to draft people into it. But also trying to make means for it no to be a burden. I figured Jake will create the Jacobus Fund again to pay money to those that need it, but aren't getting it. Or to pay taxes for people who can't. Also, paying government job people would make sure people have money to cover taxes... bounties.. etc. I want money to move. Not to pool or block people from doing things.

[Jacobus Loki]

.......and I'm taking a modest salary this time, which I may very well give away.

Gadzooks, after the last couple of weeks, I'm not going to disturb Tranquility!

[Erik Mortis]

No.. You will fulfill the role destiny has created for you...

[Jacobus Loki]

Mwahaha!

[Shyriath]

Truly, destiny moves in mysterious ways.