Government Revenue.

[Erik Mortis]

So. We need more ways to gain money for the Imperial Government.

1. Land Aquisition Fee: When assigned, granted or somehow gain a fief pay a one time fee of 25€.

2. Land Purchase: Someone can buy a county off the Imperial Government outright, with protection from removal for disuse for 3 months.

3. Title Purchase: You can buy non-hereditary titles from the Government for various amounts. Jarl 300€, Thane 500€. This would be a one time fee. You can still have the title revoked if abused or if you leave the nation..etc. Details for loss would be detailed.

4. Title Tax: a tax like the Land Tax that would be levied occasionally by the government. Civitas 50€, Equestrian 100€, Patrician 200€. If you or your house cannot pay the tax, you are demoted to the next lowest title, civitas would lose their title outright.

5. Citizenship Tax: 25€ tax on every citizenship you have aside from Shireroth's. Until the tax is paid you are ineligible for land or title grants. The fee would be cumulative, so you'd have to pay all your Cit Tax debt before you can gain a title or lands.

6. Flat Tax: X€ tax on everyone.

[Kaiseress Anandja II]

I think prices for titles should be higher or payed on a monthly basis.

[Harvey Steffke]

I haven't received a single erb in about 5 months so I'm just gunna refuse to pay any taxes that land on me directly. Just sayin'.

[Andreas the Wise]

Did somebody ask for economic analysis?

The last .... however long it was since we formed the SCUE ... we've got by largely because we had large reserves we were running down, and did one or two 'one off' taxes. As Erik said, people complained a lot at the last one, which is a problem with doing the odd big 'one off' tax. Now we can't rely on huge reserves, we have two options - either don't spend, and don't tax; or spend, and tax about as much as we spend.

I'm happy for us to keep spending and taxing regularly - it was a model we established early on in our economy and I think the bounty system serves well. The goal of that particular model is to redistribute money from the inactive to the active - but when I say 'active' I don't mean posts, but instead activity that benefits Shireroth. In the past this has tended to be more focussed on cultural development and ministerial responsibilities - wikiing hasn't been paid much and doing things like the Landsraad haven't been paid anything. With this new, freeform House system, perhaps that should change.

The House system is meant to reward you for doing things. If you do land development well, you can get more land. If you do everything else well, you can get more power for yourself and/or your house. If you're inactive, you can lose power (and in some cases, land). Why not tie the bounty and tax system directly into that?

Give people bounties for the things they do for Shireroth - cultural development, working in government jobs, wiking, and also for being active in the Landsraad and with land development (though less for that). Tax people for the things they hold - titles and land. If they can't pay the tax, then revoke their title/land.
If we get the levels of bounty and tax right, then the Kaiser/ess shouldn't need to put so much effort into thinking "Is person X doing enough to merit title/land Y?" If they can't pay their tax, they haven't been doing enough stuff in Shireroth, because if they have been doing enough stuff to merit their title/land, they should also have enough bounty to pay their taxes. This is where the level thing becomes important. Land tax is small, particularly because we expect that people might hold a couple counties. So bountying for land development should also be small. 'Activity in the Landsraad' is something that can only be earnt by Dukes/Margraves; but a Duke/Margrave also has to pay more for their title. See where I'm going?

This also provides an incentive for continuous land development in particular, if you're paying continuous taxes on it.

We should probably aim to pay out about as much or slightly less than we get in. Then our reserves for special one-off stuff (like the university, or a recwar) can build up over time.

Regarding Erik's specific tax suggestions:
1. Maybe not if granted by the Kaiser/ess, but if granted by the Arbiter, sure.
2. Good, and probably even worthwhile to allow current landholders to pay some reduced rate for guaranteed non-removal.
3 and 4. I wonder if people will have much incentive to buy Thane or Jarl titles if they have to also pay taxes on it. But as above, yes, we should tax the titles.
5 and 6 I would advise against. These are not special privileges we're giving people that we should tax for. Though flat taxes could be appropriate if we find we're not getting enough revenue from other taxes.

EDIT: Also death duties.

[Erik Mortis]

How bout 750€ for a Jarl and 1000€ for a Thane title that is free from possible revocation for 3 months, baring loss of citizenship or crimes against the empire?

[Kaiseress Anandja II]

I still think that we should charge per month for titles. If you don't have the cash to pay once per month, you probably don't deserve the title.

[Erik Mortis]

I prefer one time charges for purposes of bookkeeping. And these aren't voting positions. Paying monthly would also make them WAY overpriced considering that other people get them for free, and they don't grant any real benefits at this point. We need to make sure they are still desirable.

[Kaiseress Anandja II]

Other people get them for free because they deserve to get them for free. Perhaps a renewal fee then every three months or something? You pay first, get the title, hold it for three months unless you emigrate or fuck up completely, and then you renew the title for another three months.

[Erik Mortis]

That would make sense. But make the renewal fee half the original or something, and come with the same protections.

[Kaiseress Anandja II]

Sounds good. High initial fee, half renewal fee.

[Jacobus Loki]

Keep it up, and you will be taxing empty air, as that is all that will be left.

[Andreas the Wise]

If the taxes extend a great deal, yes, we will end up taxing empty air. Just like if the Kaiser/ess becomes too power hungry, ze will be ruling over empty air. That doesn't mean that we can't do any taxes. If we get the bounty-tax level right, then people who really couldn't care less about the economy (like yourself) will get enough money from doing Shirithian things (via bounties) that you can pay your taxes, and on net, it all works out to nothing for you. Especially if MiniTrade takes the tax money from your account for you. And those of us who do like the economy or just enjoy trying to quantify reality (guilty as charged) can have fun doing that too. If you want to see taxes taken too far, go to Alexandria, where they want people to pay on 10% of their assets and so have these strange threads "I've said I have a house in x. It's probably worth 5 million pounds. But my government salary is only 15 000. How am I meant to pay this? What is it worth?"

In Shireroth, we're not simulating an economy. We're just doing a small actual economy, with people paid for doing real things, and paying for real things. For the government to be able to pay bounties, we need money coming in every now and again. Ergo, some taxes.

On Thanes and Jarls and taxes - how about there is a monthly tax/fee on hereditary titles and the title of Margrave; and you can purchase Thane and Jarl. A further fee every so often would ensure non-revocation; I don't know if it should be compulsory or not (if someone is granted the title by the Landsraad, say, should they pay a fee?)

[Jacobus Loki]

"Wouldn't the Death Tax cover most of this short term?" he said in a small voice.