Land Reform

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Andreas the Wise
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Land Reform

Post by Andreas the Wise »

tl;dr version:
Claiming/Granting
Let the Kaiser and Landsraad grant land; and the Houses and Individuals be able to claim ungranted land. Kaiser > Landsraad > House > Individual - higher levels can revoke claims/grants of lower levels, and change their own claims/grants.
Land Organisation and Convention
Within a house, organise the land into Key House Land, subhouses for each individual (equivalent to Baronies), and 'spare' land. By convention, the Kaiser and Landsraad can take away spare land from a house if needed for others, and the house won't kick up a fuss. The Kaiser and Landsraad retain the power to take non-spare land away from a house; but by convention would not use that power without talking with the House first.
Hereditary/Non-Hereditary
Make it clear what happens to land when individuals die (either it stays in their house or it goes back to the Kaiser). If particular individuals are really good with land, you can grant them a lot of non-hereditary land, so their house loses it when they die. If a house dies, the land of course reverts to Imperial control.
I know there are a variety of opinions on how helpful Erik's reforms have been - ranging from "You've killed the Duchies" to "The Duchies were dead, but so are the houses - Shireroth is dead" to "Houses = Political Parties" to "This is a great reform, I love it!" But I think we can all agree that what it has achieved is flexibility in both power and land. Personally, I think the flexibility in nobility is a great idea and has a lot more oomph in it; just that people haven't generally done too much stuff to merit it (hence it comes across as just taking away power and not giving it back).

However, the flexibility in land comes across to me as ... awkward. We can see that it's good not to have land nobody uses any more tied up forever; but we can also see that there is too much land in Imperial hands and none of us are quite sure how to get more. (For those wondering, yes, military action is part of Kildare's plan to claim more, but runs into the difficulty that Jonas and I are too busy; and my Shirithian time is now being taken up with the Landsraad.) So I have a proposal of how to keep flexibility in land and it's allocation; but to also allow historical land to be returned and new people to get involved with land.

Currently, land is granted by the Kaiser, and you can hold it in three levels:
Individual (non-hereditary) - You keep the land till you die; it follows you if you change houses; when you die, it reverts to Imperial land.
Individual (hereditary) - You have unambiguous control of this land within your house; when you die, it reverts to your House.
House (hereditary) - The House has this land; and may grant it to individuals within the house but it doesn't stay with them if they move houses. When the house dies, it reverts to Imperial Land.

Nobody may be in the Individual (hereditary) category yet, but it'll make sense why I've included it soon.

In my proposal, the Kaiser retains ultimate control of all land, as currently; but in practise others can claim and grant land too, and by convention, the Kaiser will not take land away if it is within certain categories.

Claiming/Granting
Land can be claimed/granted by the Kaiser, Landsraad, House or Individual; on a first-come first-served basis. Each level can change claims/grants of their level or below, but not of the level above. Within each level land can be held in one of the three above categories [Individual (non-hereditary); Individual (hereditary) and House (hereditary)] with the obvious exception that Individuals cannot claim land as House.

If the Kaiser grants land, the grant is irrevocable by anybody else; as currently. That includes that if the Kaiser grants land to an individual, their Head of House cannot take it away from them.
The Landsraad can grant any land not granted by the Kaiser. It can grant land to houses or to individuals. As before, if granted to individuals, their Head of House cannot take it away from them. The Landsraad can of course change the grants in the future.
A House can claim land that has not been granted by the Kaiser or Landsraad. In this case, they claim it as House (hereditary). Any land within a house that is House (hereditary), whether claimed or granted, can be given to individuals within the House by the Head of House, either as hereditary or non-hereditary to their sub-house (see below).
Finally, an individual can claim land that is not claimed by a House or granted by the Landsraad/Kaiser. If they are not in a house or their claim is not sanctioned by their house, another house can claim the land from them and take it away from them (House claims trump Individual claims). But another individual cannot claim the land off an Individual while that individual is still alive.

House Organisation
Within a House, land can be organised into sub-houses (which can either correspond to Individuals or the Minor Houses, depending on the size of the House). One sub-house will be Key House Land - land that is held by the house and is considered crucial to it and therefore granted to the head of house instead of to individuals. Any land that a house claims but does not consider that important is held outside any sub-houses, and can be claimed by individuals within the house for their sub-house.

In practical terms, this means that if a house holds land but doesn't give it to any subhouse, they don't care about the land too much. That sends the signal to the Kaiser/Landsraad that if others need to be granted the land, they can be and the house won't kick up a fuss too much. By convention, the Kaiser/Landsraad would not take land away that was granted to living subhouses; though they retain the theoretical power to do so.

Hopefully that wasn't too confusing - the overall thing is clear in my head but not easy to explain in general terms. Here's an example that will hopefully make it clearer.

An Extended Example
Take House Kildare, with two living citizens, Andreas and Jonas. Both Andreas and Jonas hold one county each (Melangia and Greater Audentior respectively) as Individual (non-hereditary) granted by the Kaiser. This means that technically, when they die, it reverts to Imperial Land, not their house; and it also means that Jonas, as Head of House, cannot take away Melangia from Andreas and give it to himself (or vice versa).
The Landsraad might agree to grant Kildare some other core lands - say Old Hallucination, Kitanus Fields, Blackrock and Nova Dalmacija. This means that other Houses cannot claim these lands. The Head of House might choose to grant Old Hallucination to the sub-house Atterock (corresponding to Andreas); and Blackrock to the sub-house Windsor (corresponding to Jonas). Kitanus Fields and Nova Dalmacija might then go into Key House Land. This signals to the Landsraad/Kaiser that these lands are considered valuable to Kildare.
House Kildare might then claim all the rest of the land on Apollonia. The Head of House might grant some land to each sub-house and leave some territories outside all that (say Automatica and Demesos).
Finally, Andreas as an individual might claim Illumination, but the Head of House doesn't sanction it so it's an individual claim.

If Andreas dies, Illumination would revert to Imperial Land. Let's say he also had Norfolk granted from the Head of House as Individual (non-hereditary). It would leave sub-house Atterock and go back to House Kildare in general. The rest of his land might be hereditary to the sub-house, and so his successor, New Citizen X, becomes head of Sub-House Atterock and gains control of those lands. New Citizen X might claim Illumination again.

Now House Elwynn decides they want Illumination. Since it's only an individual claim and they're a house, they can take it from New Citizen X (House trumps Individual). They might also want Norfolk, but because that's claimed by House Kildare already, they can't take it. They could negotiate a trade or start a war, but they can't unilaterally claim it. New Citizen Y comes along, and does some nifty stuff. The Landsraad might choose to give him some land, and sees that House Kildare has Norfolk just held in general. They take it away from House Kildare (Landsraad trumps House), and then grants it to New Citizen Y. Finally, the Kaiser might come along and decide that Kildare should keep Norfolk. So he takes it off New Citizen Y (Kaiser trumps Landsraad) and grants it to House Kildare as House (hereditary) land. The Landsraad wants to take it back, but they can't now, because the Kaiser has granted it and they can't stop the Kaiser's orders.

Summary
Basically then, I'd allow people to claim land and higher level claims/grants to trump lower levels. Some land would stay with houses/sub-houses when people die; some would revert back to the house; some back to the Kaiser. Land can still be taken off people - just by convention you only take the land they aren't using.
And if this all seems to complicated, you could just grant Kildare all of the land on Apollonia and we'll stop badgering for Land Reform. :p

EDIT: Inserted a tl;dr version, so it's more clear what parts are important and what parts are explained because they're a helpful convention but aren't essential.
Last edited by Andreas the Wise on Sun May 16, 2010 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Malliki Tosha
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Re: Land Reform

Post by Malliki Tosha »

This is too complicated. The truth is that two people can't support a massive land claim. I hold two counties personally, as part of a deal with the Kaiser. Why should we bend and twist the system just because Kildare is obsessed with holding land you don't use?
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Re: Land Reform

Post by Andreas the Wise »

The thing is, we do use it. In my time as Baron of Atterock I've made good use of all the counties in my Barony - particularly in the Kildarian Time Wars, but also outside them. Other parts of Kildare's land (such as the Kitanus Fields and Nova Dalmacija) have been considerably developed in the past; and with so much undeveloped land around Shireroth, what possible problem is there in Kildare protecting their historical development and slowly adding to it over time? Now, I totally grant that there are some counties that we've never used well (such as Vervollkommnung, Schlangen, Lesser Attera and Demesos) - those lands Kildare would claim as a House and leave out of any sub-houses. Thus if there was an influx of citizens and the Landsraad/Kaiser decided they needed to give the land to other people they could. But if nobody does need them, then why not leave nominally in Kildarian hands, where they managed perfectly well for the last three thousand years?

If one person cannot maintain a number of counties if they want to and develop them then there is something seriously wrong with this new 'flexible' system. If I want to aim at political power, and be rewarded in that, I should be; and if I want to aim at land and don't really care about political power, I should be able to achieve land. I would happily give up being a Margrave to get the core Kildarian lands + the Barony of Atterock (oh, and maybe Halluci Nua, since I did go to some effort to get that county created) back.
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Re: Land Reform

Post by Kaiser Mors VI »

I'm gonna have to agree with Mike... Maybe I just don't understand. But I don't like the idea of house/individuals just grabbing land. Just walking over and saying "Yeah.. this is mine now." and expecting the Imperial government to just give it to them with no proof it'll get used.
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Re: Land Reform

Post by Andreas the Wise »

I inserted a tl;dr version which might help. And it's not individuals/houses claiming land and expecting it to be given to them. It's them claiming land nobody else is using and the Kaiser/Landsraad taking it away if necessary (with the house organising their land to make it clear which parts they'd like to give up first).
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Re: Land Reform

Post by Malliki Tosha »

Again, all land belongs to the Kaiser and is held in fief. Novi Dalmacija is still developed even tjo it's not currently Kildarian. Use the land you have first.
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Re: Land Reform

Post by Jonas »

Those who know Kildare will agree that the current system has ruined a large part of Kildarian culture.
This is too complicated. The truth is that two people can't support a massive land claim. I hold two counties personally, as part of a deal with the Kaiser. Why should we bend and twist the system just because Kildare is obsessed with holding land you don't use?
Then give Kildare their land back and give us a kind of separated status so we can go back to the Duchy system, while the rest does whatever it likes to do (and don't worry about the votes: it's not like we really care). It's not like Shireroth hasn't enough land.
And if other people want some land of it: no problem, they are welcome, even if they are member of an other House.
From a distance I'm concerned about the rampant lawyerism manifesting itself in Shireroth currently. A simple Kaiserial slap on the wrist or censure by the community should suffice. - Jacobus Loki
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Re: Land Reform

Post by Kaiser Mors VI »

You're culture wasn't ruined. Nothing changed for Kildare with the system change. You've just been collectively whining like a spoiled child who had the toys they never play with taken away. "Wah wah.. you took my GI JOE away.." "But you haven't played with it in 2 years" "No... it's mine. It's important to me. It's MY toy..."

Hell, I haven't even seen you do anything with the land you do have since the change. Maybe if you had I'd be sympathetic, but all I've seen is whining. I've been trying to be patient with you, but I'm starting to get sick of it.

I can guarantee, if I give any lands to Kildare, all 2 of you, nothing will happen with those lands. They'll sit there unused, as they were before. At best they'll get a few half assed posts to make it seem you've done something with them.

So instead of whining and trying to get some sort of special treatment, or status. Do something useful. Make the next Kaiser go "hey, they've been working hard. They've shown they can develop lands, maybe I'll grant them a county or two. "
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Re: Land Reform

Post by Andreas the Wise »

Either you're not understanding the subtleties of my suggestion (like the "we'll claim all of Apollonia but you're welcome to take the bits we're not using back off us if you need the land for other people. We'll make it easy for you to see which bits we're not using." Or that it's historically unverifiably hard to conduct a war across a country when random bits of it are grouped as Kildare and the other bits are spread in semi-alphabetical order [instead of something sensible like land groupings]), or you're missing the idea that some land has been developed reasonably already, in which case, why take it away? What's the good of me being Margrave if I can't even do something I think good for the country, let alone what I'd like to do for Kildare?
Kaiser Mors VI wrote:I can guarantee, if I give any lands to Kildare, all 2 of you, nothing will happen with those lands. They'll sit there unused, as they were before. At best they'll get a few half assed posts to make it seem you've done something with them.

So instead of whining and trying to get some sort of special treatment, or status. Do something useful. Make the next Kaiser go "hey, they've been working hard. They've shown they can develop lands, maybe I'll grant them a county or two. "
To me, that sounds like a challenge. I already had plans for the Time War, as you know, because you've seen that secret forum; but creative recwar posts are so much harder to write than menial Landsraad arguments. I've sat down four times in the last three days to try and start a post, but I haven't been able to because my micronational time is constrained and I've been wasting it on the Landsraad. As you wish, then. I'll conserve my time. As Margrave, I shall now ignore the Landsraad and the Imperial Level except for Land Reform bills and anything to do with the economy; and spend my time in Shireroth on the Time War and land development. I suspected I didn't really have time to be a Margrave, but if you're going to be like this, then I know I don't have time.
Could you kindly make up your mind? Either you are challenging me to participate at the Imperial Level, and going to grant me what I really want (Land back) accordingly; or you're going to challenge me to do land stuff, in which case I'm wasting my time at the Imperial Level because I don't have the energy to do both.

(oh, and don't take it too personally :archy. You've just brought me to a head I knew I was coming to over the last few days when you made me Margrave. I hoped I could manage without land development if I could achieve land reform in the meantime, and come back to land development when I had more time and the nation didn't rely on me being active Imperially. But I'd suspected it wouldn't be that easy, and now you've shown it isn't. :smashy )
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Re: Land Reform

Post by Harvey Steffke »

This sort of thing is why I never wanted to develop any land in Shireroth culturally. All it takes is one Kaiser to forcifully remind everyone that the land was never really theirs to begin with.

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Re: Land Reform

Post by Malliki Tosha »

But taking away developed land isn't exactly what Erik is doing here. Well, yes, but no. I still hold my land since it was developed by me. Erik knows that I would not be happy if he took it. But I don't go around claiming half the nation for House Tosha-Straylight.
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Re: Land Reform

Post by Andreas the Wise »

I think you're failing to appreciate the subtleties of my suggestion regarding Land Reform. The 'complication' in the levels and convention is there to:
a. Allow historically and geographically contiguous land that nobody else is using to be kept together.
b. To allow Houses a nominal claim to land they wish to develop in the future; and to include them easily in big House events.
c. To allow people to develop land within their house over time, and the Landsraad and Kaiser to officially recognise that when they have done that development.
d. To make it clear which people 'would not be happy' if the Kaiser took it away; and which land they'd like to have but can be taken away if others need it.

The general spirit of Erik's change was good, but it went too far. If nobody's using the land but someone intends to use it, why shouldn't the subforum be able to be located within their house in the meantime? If we get a sudden influx of citizens and others need to use it, the Kaiser and Landsraad can take it back off them. It'll be clear which land nobody owns and nobody intends to use; and new citizens can grab that and get involved with it straight away; instead of having to wait for the Kaiser to say "I think you're being nifty, I'm going to pick a random county and give it to you." And Houses who actually bother to do things outside their original county can easily involve neighbouring counties. It's not as if holding land (even nominally) is costless - people have to pay a tax on it.

I'd say I've done considerable development/use of the land with Melangia, Old Hallucination and Raynor Isles. I'm also the only one in modern Shireroth to have done anything with Gong Li, though I'll admit it hasn't been a great deal apart from the work done around the Gong Li Rebellion; and I've done more than Foghorn ever did with Norfolk since Shireroth revived two years ago. Why don't I merit Atterock? Instead of talking the Kaiser into giving me a personal concession, I'm trying this approach so that everyone in the nation can have the same opportunity as me. Not least of which is being recognised for all the hours we put into development before this new system came into place.
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