Landsraad Funtimes Bill Discussion

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Allot
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Landsraad Funtimes Bill Discussion

Post by Allot »

I figured it was a good a time as any to discuss: how do people feel about formally separating the Front Gate and the actual Landsraad into a discussion forum and a purely voting forum? Or (1:10000 odds that people prefer this) just leave the Praetor to sort it all out?

If we actually like that idea, then it brings into question all sorts of other voting procedures, i.e. how does a bill get to the Landsraad (seconded? thirded? neither?), emergency bills, etc...

Or just tell me to shut up.
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Re: Landsraad Funtimes Bill Discussion

Post by Erik Mortis »

Yeah... I rather not add that much procedure. It's hard enough to get nobles to vote as it is... (something that will need to be attended to).

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Re: Landsraad Funtimes Bill Discussion

Post by Ryan »

Go for it.
Oh ye who torments me in dreams of dark abysses, beware the sleeping shadow, for it is a bane like no other...
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Re: Landsraad Funtimes Bill Discussion

Post by Eldwood »

I've been thinking about the functionality of the Landsraad for quite a while now, and since it affects me directly now I think that its about time we did something about the procedures.

Several points come to mind:

Primarily, the distinction between the Landsraad and the Front Gate and the right to "speak" in the Landsraad. I find, as it is, that too much discussion takes place in Bill threads and that some comments bring about edits to the Bill AFTER they have been opened.

Also, the power of the Praetor is non existent. He is to preside, over the Landsraad, but does not have the right to enforce its procedures, this should be changed.

I understand that the following proposals may be criticized as "extreme", "intrusive", and even "liberal", but I urge everyone to discuss the points I shall address. Sure the systems works fine as it is and the "if its not broken, don't fix it" adage is viable, but the procedures are far from effective and can has much room for improvement.

1. Praetor Election Demystification
Lawbook - Chapter IV : The Landsraad - B : The Paretor wrote: 1. Election

a. The Prætor of Shireroth may only be elected by the nobility of
the land from among the Full-Citizens of the Land.
b. The Prætor does not have to be a Noble of Shireroth.

3. Deputy Prætor
a. The Deputy Prætor of Shireroth may only be elected by the nobility of the land from among the Full-Citizens of the Land.
b. The Deputy Prætor does not have to be a Noble of Shireroth.
c. The Deputy Praetor is held by the same restrictions as the Praetor.
Be changed to:
Lawbook - Chapter IV : The Landsraad - B : The Paretor wrote: 1. Election

a. Prætor elections shall be exempt from the conventional Landsraad voting procedures.
b. All nobles may vote upon the election of the new Prætor, either casting a vote for or against — in the case of a single candidate — or supporting one of the presented candidates — in the case where several have been nominated.
c. The election of a Prætor shall be presided upon by the quondam Prætor.
d. Should the quondam be unavailable, the Kaiser shall preside over said elections.
e. The Prætor does not have to be a Noble of Shireroth.

3. Deputy Prætor
a. The Deputy Prætor of Shireroth may be appointed by the residing Praetor.
b. The Deputy Prætor does not have to be a Noble of Shireroth.
c. The Deputy Praetor is held by the same restrictions as the Praetor.
2. Empowering the Praetor
Lawbook - Chapter IV : The Landsraad - B : The Paretor wrote: 2. Powers

a. The Prætor of Shireroth shall preside over the Landsraad as chairman.
b. His/Her purpose and duty shall be to call a meeting of the Landsraad
to order, tally votes, close votes, generally manage and keep order
within the Landsraad; as well as keep records of all bills and
resolutions passed during his/her tenure.
Be changed to:
Lawbook - Chapter IV : The Landsraad - B : The Paretor wrote: 2. Duties & Powers

a. The Prætor of Shireroth shall preside over the Landsraad as chairman.
b. The Praetor must abide by the duties imposed by the Landsraad procedures.
c. The Praetor may enforce a three day moratorium on a voting noble for actions transgressing upon the conduct dictated by the Landsraad procedures.
3. Landsraad Membership
Landsraad Procedures wrote: A. Members of the Landsraad

1. Membership in the Landsraad is determined in accordance with the Imperial Charter and includes only those with votes to cast.
Be changed to:
Landsraad Procedures wrote: A. Landsraad Membership

1. Only a noble of Shireroth may be a member of the Landsraad.
2. Membership is accorded to all nobles with voting privileges as per defined in the Big Fat Vote Thread.
4. Empowering the Landsraad
Landsraad Procedures wrote: A. Procedure Empowerment

1.This document derives its authority from Article II, Section A of the Imperial Charter.
Be added.

5. Partitioning the Landsraad
Landsraad Procedures wrote: C. Bills
1. The Landsraad passes changes to the LawBook. Each bill is presented in the form of an unambiguous change to the LawBook, and must have a name used by no bill presented before it. Any member of the Landsraad, and the Praetor, can present a bill for voting.

[...]

F. Speech
1. Any member of the Landsraad, any duly appointed Emissary, and the Prætor, can freely express their opinion on any bill presented in the Landsraad. All others are barred from speaking in the Landsraad and are directed to speak at the Front Gate.
Be replaced by:
Landsraad Procedures wrote: C. Bills
1. Bills passed by the Landsraad shall be recorded in the LawBook.
2. A bill may be proposed by any denizen of Shireroth in the Landsraad Front Gate.
3. Each bill must be presented in the form of an unambiguous change to the LawBook, and must have a name used by no bill presented before it.
4. Discussions concerning the bill's content and phrasing may be conducted in the Landsraad Front Gate.
5. At any point in time — including at the time of the initial submission — the denizen who proposed the Bill may request to have the bill presented to the Landsraad, at which point in time time the Praetor shall present it in the Landsraad for voting.
6. Once presented in the Landsraad, the Bill may not be altered.
7. A bill expiring with no votes Aye or Nay may be resubmitted before the Landsraad a total of 2 times.

[...]

F. Speech
1. Any denizen of Shireroth can freely express their opinion on any bill presented in the Landsraad Front Gate.
2. Only members of the Landsraad may post in the Landsraad.
3. Posting on a Landsraad Bill may only consist of an unambiguous vote.
Now before Erik and Malliki eat my face, I want to offer some rationale, and request their help seeing as my legal lingo is imperfect and decidedly superfluous at times.

1. I have simply put into words what is seemingly the popular opinion. I am not sure, however, if I have properly compensated for 1. a. with 1. b.

2. I want power, what can I say? Also the less the Lawbook dictates Landsraad procedure the easier it will be to make changes should we so feel inclined.

3. Further clarification. (Maybe Unnecessary?)

4. Much like the clause that says "none may violate this charter", this is understood but not explicitly stated. I don't mind doing the work putting it in so unless you think it could have negative repercussions I'd be inclined to include it.

5. Ok so this is the tough one.

Controversial Landsraad bills are messy and there is infinite confusion over when the bill has been officially opened and the validity of the votes and people disagreeing with parts of the Bill. The obvious solution is that once a bill is proposed that only vote be allowed to be cast. The equally obvious problem with this is that all the constructive criticism would be lost. So we want to ensure that both the Discussion and the Voting aspect of Bills are fulfilled.

I'm not the first to throw the idea of splitting the two stages between the Landsraad and its Front Gate, but I definitely think its time that it be officially considered. What I am proposing is a system where Bills would be proposed in the Front Gate so that everyone could partake in discussions and refinements in a non-intrusive way. Also the systems allows the proposal to skip the discussion stage. In both cases the proposer will simply post or include a request to have the Bill proposed when he/she is ready and the praetor will open the bill. The only reason I have insisted on the Praetor being the one to open the bill is that it will simplify the issue of votes cast before a bill is opened and make it easier to format.



This is a lot to deal with in one go but I would like to see some discussion on point 5 particularly since I would like to see some version of this implemented, whatever its final shape.

NOTE: There will most definitely be several grammar and spelling mistakes that I haven't caught so if you catch any important ones, point them out.
of the Illustriously common family of Eldwood

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Allot
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Re: Landsraad Funtimes Bill Discussion

Post by Allot »

My 2 cents, for what it's worth.

Praetor election changes are good, but the Deputy Praetor needs to be elected by the Landsraad as well. The Praetor is not like the Prime Minister, he does not have the power to appoint representatives of the nobles (which the Praetor is and therefore, by extension, is the DP).

I think we should discuss how the Praetor can enforce the rules, because a moratorium seems quite strict.

Everything else is good. I thoroughly approve of separating the Front Gate and the Landsraad, and I wouldn't be opposed to even making a rule that says bills must be seconded before they move to the Landsraad proper.

All in all, I support most of the stuff in here.
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Re: Landsraad Funtimes Bill Discussion

Post by Erik Mortis »

The front gate was created for the use of Non-nobles and non-voting persons. It should remain that way. It should not be worked into the procedures. The Front Gate is the place of the rabble, not the nobles. If you want to make it so bill must be discussed then after a day or two a voting thread be made, all occurring in the Landsraad, I'm fine with that. We've done that before. But the Front Gate should not be a proper component of the Landsraad's functioning. Further, we shouldn't be explicitly making non-nobles part of the legislative process. They may be informally part of it now, but it should remain informal.

Also Speach (5.f) was good as it was. So. Yeah. Scrap 5 entirely.

Also: "...generally manage and keep order within the Landsraad..." Gives you the power to enforce. But I have no issue with granted the powers explicitly.

So...

1. Sure. But the Deputy should be elected, not appointed. And wtf does 'quondam' mean?

2. Leave it as it is now, and add specific powers if you want. Don't scrap b.

3. Works for me.

4. I like it.

5. Nope. Not keen on partitioning in any form. Clear that out and there might be something useful there. You removing of the speech section is a mistake. For one you remove the reference to Emissaries, which I think we need to keep in for clarity. See above.

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