Shireroth

Ok so I am majority confused right now. Admittedly I missed the section of the Charter that put the Kaiser in charge of Praetor elections but Erik is the second person now to say that all nobles should have a vote in the matter. I, however, do not see anywhere — in any of the three repositories of law that outline this hot mess — that should be so.

These relevant laws are as follows.

Lawbook - Chapter IV : The Landsraad wrote: C. 1. a. The Prætor of Shireroth may only be elected by the nobility of the land from among the Full-Citizens of the Land.

As Allot said before,

Imperial Chater - Artical III: The Landsraad - Section D: The Praetor wrote: a. The Prætor of Shireroth may only be elected by the nobility of the Shireroth, from among the full-citizens of the Shireroth. The Prætor does not have to be a Noble of Shireroth. The Kaiser shall manage the election of the Prætor by the Landsraad, and shall act as Prætor of the Landsraad until one is immediately elected.

Procedures of the Landsraad - E. The Praetor wrote: 1. The Praetor is appointed in accordance with the Imperial Charter and Lawbook, and has the rights and obligations established therein.

My problem arises from the convoluted definition of a "Noble":

Imperial Chater - Artical III: The Landsraad - Section C: Members of the Landsraad wrote: a. The Landsraad shall consist of the Nobles of Shireroth.

Procedures of the Landsraad - A. Members of the Landsraad wrote: 1. Membership in the Landsraad is determined in accordance with the Imperial Charter and includes only those with votes to cast.

Lawbook - Chapter II. Subdivision - B. Nobles wrote: 1. Duchies shall be ruled by a Noble known as a Duke or Duchess.

It is obvious that these three clash significantly since the charter relies on the definition of the lawbook (which is outdated as it only includes the dukes) and the Proceedures then (through implication) defines a noble as someone who can vote which, in turn, contradicts the charter...

In any case the point I was trying to make is that only nobles with votes in the big fat vote thread can vote on the elections just like any other vote. Im not quite sure why its been done any differently.

If I have misinterpreted or missed something please tell me since my brain is kinda exploding right now....

No.. actually.. you got it.. Barons were removed from the Lawbook and reduced to Lesser-Nobles. Only Duke and the Kaiser are considered outright Nobles.

The Praetor election is it's own affair separate from regular votes. I'm of the opinion that Both Nobles and Lesser-Nobles should get to vote on the matter at a 1 to 1 vote.

The procedures don't cover Praetor elections anymore, and most of forgotten the old ways of doing it. The Kaiser can run it as he wants at this point.

I used to let all nobles vote using a weighted system. First choice got 3 votes, 3nd got 2 3rd got 1. But there was no law making that official, I just did it when I was Kaiser, several times. I keep advocating for that model, but no one ever bothers.

The charter keeps things vague on purpose to allow us to make the details. It would help is we worked out what the Government considered "nobles" in terms of the charter. The Charger calls the Kaiser the "Supreme Noble" so.. he's set, and thus get a vote in the Praetor thing. Dukes are considered Nobles by Lawbook I think. Barons are the unclear ones these days.

I would assume that Praetor votes would be run the same way as a normal bill - with the same vote allocations. I know that's not how we've done it in the past, but that's just my thoughts.

Well, an election is something different from a bill or a vote.

true...i can't think of a real world situation to compare this to. Either way makes sense to me.

Well as its stands our current version of the Landsraad is actually in direct violation of the Charter so that is the least of our concerns...

I've already started working on several Bills that should clean all this up, but I'm warning you guys its going to be lengthy. Also I make no claims to be well versed in the workings of the law so I should hope that Erik and Malliki will help out with this.

Sure...

But... I'm not sure how illegal it is. I think we were able to fit it into the law. Only nobles can vote/speak in the Landsraad, As it stands only Duke and Barons(if they get a vote from their Duke) can vote, this is legal. Barons are Lesser-Nobles, but still nobles. We do restrict it so that Barons without a vote cannot speak, to keep things clean. Counts are not Nobles, and thus get no say.

The Kaiser is a noble, but has no vote... So I guess he shouldn't get to speak...

Seriously, the legality of the current composition of the Landsraad is iffy at best. The Charter should just say "The Landsraad has the composition prescribed by the Procedures of the Landsraad" and just be done with it. This constant bending and prying to fit our wanted model into the laws is just nonsense.

It's actually pretty simple and normal, if albeit a bit squiffy because it's in 4 separate places.

The Charter says:

a. The Landsraad shall consist of the Nobles of Shireroth.

OK.
The Procedures say:

1. Membership in the Landsraad is determined in accordance with the Imperial Charter and includes only those with votes to cast.

Still good? Still haven't defined membership past "Nobles". Alrighty then.
The LawBook says:

Chapter III. Nobles
A: Requirements

1. Citizenship
a. A Noble of Shireroth must be a citizen of Shireroth.
b. A Noble of Shireroth shall not be a minor as defined by the Ministry of Immigration and Naturalization.

B. Dukes

1. Powers granted
a. Any Duke has complete power to do whatever zie wishes within zir Duchy, within zir restrictions.
b. Any Duke may place restrictions upon lesser nobles within zir Duchy.
c. All Dukes are members of the Landsraad, with the privileges and duties enumerated in the Procedures of the Landsraad.

C. Lesser Nobles

1. Powers Granted
a. Any Lesser Noble has complete power to do whatever he wishes within his Fief, within his restrictions.
blah blah blah

Therefore the Lawbook clearly defines both Dukes and "Lesser Nobles" as Nobles. Thus they are all potential members, but only those with votes (thank you, Procedures) are members.

Did I miss something?

Yes, you missed that the Charter is supreme. If it says that all nobles are members, the Kaiser, Dukes and lesser nobles are all members and should have the right to vote. We've circumvented that for quite some time. The section of the Procedures that says "and includes only those with votes to cast" is technically unconstitutional.

Aha. Thank you, Mr. Arbiter. So we do need a Charter amendment, then. Bollocks. I was hoping to avoid that.

If we want the laws to be consistent, we need an amendment, yes. That is my view. It does function as it is now only because we allow it to.

Allot wrote:Aha. Thank you, Mr. Arbiter. So we do need a Charter amendment, then. Bollocks. I was hoping to avoid that.

I told you that... With those exact same words...
Can I not be right? Is it a crime?

Membership != vote or voice. This is why I encourage all barons, the kaiser and the dukes to get a say in the election, but let the procedures go from there.

Honestly, I only see a problem if you want to interpret it as a problem. Otherwise there is none.

It will mean what the words say.

It kinda bothers me that the Landsraad is effectively illegal right now... But I'll do the work to fix it if it doesn't bother anyone else.

The Landsraad CANNOT be illegal - it is mandated by the Charter. We just have membership issues. Whoever was Arbiter at that time failed to check that bill for legalities...

You failed to answer my question...

And fine it isn't illegal. Our current system of voting is. So the landsraad's internal functions are currently illegal. HAPPY?

Erik was Arbiter, probably. It isn't an issue because we ignore it. If we want the laws to be consistent, something has to be done about it.

Who cares about the law? Screw the law, let us ignore it and forget this matter.

"From a distance I'm concerned about the rampant lawyerism manifesting itself in Shireroth currently. A simple Kaiserial slap on the wrist or censure by the community should suffice." - Jacobus Loki

Leo, Allot, Shut the fuck up, again you are arguing over nothing. This has gone way too far, chill the fuck out and move on, there are more important things than who is wrong

Jonas wrote:Who cares about the law? Screw the law, let us ignore it and forget this matter.

"From a distance I'm concerned about the rampant lawyerism manifesting itself in Shireroth currently. A simple Kaiserial slap on the wrist or censure by the community should suffice." - Jacobus Loki

So, you're basically saying we should bitchslap the Charter or what? Where is Jake nowadays, by the way?

I am trying to say what would be legal. If the Landsraad chooses to ignore that, so be it. It works as it is now, but if we continue to patch things together, sooner or later it will break.

Yeah.. patching has been what got us here. If we removed all the Landsraad stuff so there was ONLY the charter, and then rebuilt on top of that to get the system we want, it should work.

Cho'Gall wrote:Leo, Allot, Shut the fuck up, again you are arguing over nothing. This has gone way too far, chill the fuck out and move on, there are more important things than who is wrong

This needs to be put in an Imperial Decree. I request that Steward appoint Cho'Gall as mediator between Leo and I, to bitch slap us whenever our sass goes overboard.

I'm not sure we need to rebuild the WHOLE system, since we spend a whole wack of time putting together that bloody Landsraad amendment. If we amend the Charter to say that "Noble" shall be defined in the LawBook then it's all good, right? Right?

My suggestion is to edit the Charter to say something along the lines of "Membership in the Landsraad is decided by the Landsraad itself. All Dukes must be members of the Landsraad."

Mmm... quite. But what if (at some point) we abolish the post of Duke? Should we not leave it more open ended?
Keep the first sentence.

The post of Duke has been in Shireroth for what, ten years? Eight? I don't see it being abolished in the close future, so no need to keep it open ended in my opinion.

Oh is that what we're having issues with?

wow. Then I don't see a need for a charter amendment. The Lawbook does specify what constitutes a Noble. We could always put it into the DecreeBook (Forgot we had that didn't you).

Pokes the dukes. Lets get this rolling!