The kicking of a dead horse.

[AngelGuardian93]

I was thinking about the 'apollo legacy', whatever that is, and I had a quandry I couldn't answer. Are only the people who came to Micronations though Apolyton directly considered Apollonian? There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[Kaiser Yarad I]

Well in that case I'm not Apollonian, so I think there's a wider definition. Certainly those people (save, of course, our benevolent founder) are considered original Apollonians, but I'm not sure that they're the only ones.

[AngelGuardian93]

I suppose right now my definition of Apollonian is one who came from Apolyton, and I was thinking maybe that's why erik didn't like that? There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[Harvey the Blue]

The definition of an Apollo, best I can remember, is something like the following:1) Any micronation who's founder was a regular poster at the Apolyton forums.2) Any nation who's founder split off from an existing Apollo nation.Audentior and Demesos were Apollo by the first. GAPR, Jasonia, and Treesia were Apollo by the second. There isn't something in there that covers things like Blackrock, who existed before Audentior but sort of fell into out sphere by diplomatic relations, and that is kind of where the trouble starts.Two examples of the problems here:1) Menelmacar. The nation existed way way after the old sector was all but dead. Only Treesia was still calling itself Apollo, and Menelmacar certainly didn't want to be part of Treesia. But, during it's early days, Menelmacar decided it WANTED to be Apollo, and so it was. Kind of. Who was going to say it wasn't? Thomas Hubert did this sort of thing too: declaring himself Apollo despite the definitions. And really, because he was in the Apollo sphere, he WAS Apollo. That sort of mucked up the rules-based definition a bit.2) Shireroth. Shieroth fits under the second definition. Erik first joined the UD, then left and became a FIoJ citizen, then formed The Republic of Shireroth without leaving Jasonia. They had some unique citizens (Lukedu, maybe others, it's been a very long time) but participated in things like JASO and the Apollo Confederacy and the 4th AIN merger thing. By both the rules-based and the action-based definitions, Shireroth is an Apollo nation.But they don't want to be. Or at least Erik didn't. Everyone else has been sort of quiet on the point. Certainly, no one (except Bill) has stated a DESIRE for Shireroth to be an Apollo nation. So, they aren't one by choice. Who's going to say that they are?This mucks up the definition even further. It's one thing to want to be part of a group. It's another to be part of a group but to swear it all off because of some shady dealings. The whole definition seemed to break down into a "you're Apollo if you want to be" mindset. With the collapse of the sector and the scattering of citizens, now we have individual PEOPLE rather than nations claiming to be Apollo, which confuses things even further. And I really see no end to it, unless the last few people saying they're Apollo finally leave forever, which is way more likely than a full-blown return of the sector. Harvey SteffkeSai'Kar's Memories LiveJournal - ranting about Shirerothian issues since fall 2004.

[AngelGuardian93]

I see... and I can't help but draw a comparison in my mind to the original punk rock scenes. How sad. I think I understand a bit more now... There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[Bill3000]

Scott also feels that Shireroth should be considered an Apollo nation, though I would still like to point out some things.I feel that the Apollo Sector is dead, and in retrospect, feel that it has been dead for a long time. Nowadays, I consider the death of the Apollo Sector to be the foundation of Tymaria, as it homogenized the sector through the influx of nations that were considered to be outside the sector. The anti-Apollonian feelings that would be a result of the incidents in Tymaria would also spark the death - this is the theme of what I have in Legend of Apollo in Control of Destiny 3.In retrospect, Proto-Menelmacar (Before Archetype) would have been entitled to the legacy of the Apollo Sector, although not an Apollo micronation by itself. The category had already been meaningless and innaccurate to describe it. Why? Let me explain.What exactly determines a sector in the same terms of the set of the Apollo Sector? (This means the non-inclusion of the Anglophone Sector, et cetera) It is the contribution of the individual peoples of the so-called Sector, as well as the diplomatic relations of the nations of the sector. Automatica was of the same sector as Audentior for various reasons. The most obvious was that it was a split-off from Audentior. Most citizens of GAPR were dual citizens of Audentior. A good part of their foreign relations, for better or worse, was focused toward Audentior, albeit in a form of hostility. The way the people acted were quite similar to Audentior as well. The simulationist theme, while slightly different due to the communist undertones, was still akin to Audentior - Earthlike-Fiction. The armies that existed were fictional, the world-theme was akin to Earth. It was not until the end of the nation that it tried to seperate from Audentior by renaming itself constantly and claiming macronational land.Jasonia had the same similarities. A lot of the citizens were dual citizens with other Apollo micronations. Foreign relations were intimately connected with Audentior and other Apollo nations - it was very rare for a citizen to care about nations outside the sector. The simulationist theme was the same for the majority of Jasonia's existance - Earthlike-Fiction, although it heavily worked in the Fiction department. The existance of magic did not come up until the CoD series was made up, and even then, it was mostly kept as a "secret" theme, not a theme for the entire nation. It would not be until Eoin's Treesia when the fantasy themes of Soloralism would be created.So what exactly makes up a sector, then? The communication levels of the people and nations are the most important. The similar theme basises is the second most important. These concepts allow other nations to come into a sector, but only when the sector actually exists as an entity already. Hubert's Treesia came into the sector because it pushed itself into the sector through the first criteria. Now, it is no longer a matter of the old definition, but a definition that is dynamic and depends on the state.Of course, there must be a cut-off point. A definition of a sector that is completely dynamic is pointless if it does not retain some part of the original definition. So, think of when things changed dramatically. The most dramatic change would be Tymaria. The remaining major parts of the Apollo Sector would be influxed into a supra-merge. The communication dynamics of before would be made pointless as entire nations that previously were thought as distant entities were made part of the nation. This is a point in which the Apollo Sector definition break down - the change was not gradual, but abrupt. It is meaningless to talk about the Apollo Sector when the nations of the former Apollo Sector become small parts of an entire nation as a whole, and would be changed to a faction of the nation. What would be consisted of whatever sectors that existed in the past would be reduced to factions of Tymaria as everyone focused on one forum and one nation. This is the breakup point.So you could think of it akin to Rome, basically. Ignoring the warnings of the analogy fallacy, you could say it like this. There used to be a Roman Empire, and even after the Roman Empire split, there still could be some remnents of a "Roman Sector" even though things have changed. But when there were abrupt changes that would make previous concepts meaningless, (Fall of Rome, most likely) the concept as a whole would change, and it would become a matter of who would be able to have the "legacy."So the point of the matter is not if Shireroth is an Apollonian nation today - that is like saying France is part of the Roman Sector today. It is a matter of legacy for today, and the path that the nations that could have previously had some relations with the old Apollo Sector have taken. Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismCitizen of ShirerothBaron of AntyaProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'We.....are.....not....FANTASY!>?!POE' - Scott Siskind, on hearing Bill Dusch say that Shireroth's theme is percieved to be Fiction-Fantasy based";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="'I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock.' - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'I could probably date Hypatia's Mom. Now THAT'S scary.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);

[AngelGuardian93]

Very well thought out, Bill. There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.