On micronational democracy

[Bill3000]

Something that has been bothering me in micronations is the rhetoric over the arguments for democracy. You know, that age old ability of everyone having a say. The problem is that, frankly, I find it to not apply to micronationalism.Compared to other hobbies on the internet, internet micronationalism is very small. A very select amount of people (with a select amount of personality) are even interested in micronationalism in the first place. The rhetoric against Democracy doesn't apply here. Think about it - the argument that "Democracy allows the dumb to vote." So you willingly insult the very few in your nation without having an example? It would be better to say "Democracy allows XXX to vote, who is dumb and doesn't deserve it" if this was even appliable, because there are too few of us to apply the rhetoric of uneducation to micronationalism - and even in this case, this is nonsense, as most of us have at least some interest in politics. People who arn't interested in politics just don't participate in the political aspects of micronationalism.And then there's the arguments for democracy, which in reality is the same thing as arguments against oligarchy in micronationalism. (Note: I'm mostly talking about Direct Democracy here.) You know how it goes: "An oligarchy doesn't allow people to get a say, people deserve the right to have a say instead of the few." First of all, I'd like to note that most oligarchial governments have more active citizens in the oligarchial government compared to the total amount of active citizens. That isn't a minority. And if someone does feel like they arn't getting their fair share of the say, unlike real like, they can just emmigrate. There's no need to stay in a micronation in which you are alienated.What I'm saying here is that the arguments both for and against democracy, that are used in the real world, are not appliable to micronationalism. It is better to term arguments in the terms of micronational factions (Democracy allows all factions to have a potential say, Oligarchy allows a select amount of actions to have a potential say) than in terms of the "people," because "the people" is just a gross inaccurracy which doesn't work. Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismCitizen of ShirerothBaron of AntyaProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'We.....are.....not....FANTASY!>?!POE' - Scott Siskind, on hearing Bill Dusch say that Shireroth's theme is percieved to be Fiction-Fantasy based";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="'I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock.' - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'I could probably date Hypatia's Mom. Now THAT'S scary.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);

[RicLyon]

The least democratic countries are the ones that survive. Look at Shireroth, Babkha, Cyberia etc...

[Bill3000]

Then analyze why they survive instead of using the common rhetoric against democracy. Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismCitizen of ShirerothBaron of AntyaProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'We.....are.....not....FANTASY!>?!POE' - Scott Siskind, on hearing Bill Dusch say that Shireroth's theme is percieved to be Fiction-Fantasy based";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="'I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock.' - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'I could probably date Hypatia's Mom. Now THAT'S scary.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);Edited by: Bill3000 at: 10/19/05 7:23

[Osman Shahanshah]

Actually Cyberia is very democratic... or bureaucratic... I forget which.

[Sir Iain de Vembria]

Probably both. Chairman of the Sovereign Order of Treesia

[RicLyon]

Cyberia may be democratic in structure, but hardly in spirit.

[Gryphon the Pure]

Democracy allows Ann Marie to vote, who is dumb and doesn't deserve it.Democracy allows Jacobus to vote, who is dumb and doesn't deserve it.Democracy allows bby to vote, who is dumb and doesn't deserve it.Democracy allows William @#%$ to vote, who is dumb and doesn't deserve it.Democracy allows Bill Dusch to vote, who is young and stupid and doesn't deserve it....okay, I'll stop. Scion of the Mog Kaiser

[RicLyon]

Whose Ann-Marie?

[Gryphon the Pure]

The Devil. Scion of the Mog Kaiser

[RicLyon]

Oh! I remember her! Hehehe.And god... that I wrote "whose"...

[Shyriath]

*Cringes* Oh! The old wound...

[AngelGuardian93]

*shudders* There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[Bill3000]

*smacks Joe for taking my statement at face value * Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismCitizen of ShirerothBaron of AntyaProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'We.....are.....not....FANTASY!>?!POE' - Scott Siskind, on hearing Bill Dusch say that Shireroth's theme is percieved to be Fiction-Fantasy based";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="'I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock.' - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'I could probably date Hypatia's Mom. Now THAT'S scary.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);

[Gryphon the Pure]

*smacks Bill in the face for disrespecting his superior* Scion of the Mog Kaiser

[Bill3000]

*smacks Joe again for the same reason of disrespecting his superior*Hm. This could go on forever... Bill Dusch - Archon of SoloralismCitizen of ShirerothBaron of AntyaProud to be Apollonianvar txtList = new Array()txtList[txtList.length]="'Whoa! You're in...college now? You got...older! I guess that's what happens when time passes, but still...' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'The Hindenburg Uncertainty Principle, by contrast states that before you get on a blimp, you can never be certain whether it's going to catch on fire or not' - Scott Siskind";txtList[txtList.length]="'We.....are.....not....FANTASY!>?!POE' - Scott Siskind, on hearing Bill Dusch say that Shireroth's theme is percieved to be Fiction-Fantasy based";txtList[txtList.length]="'me to. well almost, we have to worship the living god, Bill3000.' - Hubert";txtList[txtList.length]="'Y'know what? I am never going to get out of micronations. I think I need to be assassinated or something.' - Jason Steffke";txtList[txtList.length]="'Bill, you are STILL young and stupid.' - Jason Steffke, Control of Destiny 1";txtList[txtList.length]="'I think we've gotta promote you. You now have slightly more diplomatic skills than a random rock.' - Sirithil nos Feanor, to Bill Dusch";txtList[txtList.length]="'Wow. I'm this close to admitting you're no longer young and stupid.' - Scott Siskind, to Bill";txtList[txtList.length]="'ow! I've been thrwappen! Now I have a sudden urge to enter politics...' - Gryphon the Pure, after being hit by a shard of Pure Mischief";txtList[txtList.length]="'I could probably date Hypatia's Mom. Now THAT'S scary.' - Ryan Caruso"; j=parseInt(Math.random()*txtList.length);j=(isNaN(j))?0:j;document.write(txtList[j]);Edited by: Bill3000 at: 10/19/05 23:33

[AngelGuardian93]

*smacks both of them, then hides* There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[Hypatia Agnesi]

*smacks both of them, but doesn't hide, because it's her right to do so*HA! SO THERE! *sticks out tongue*Oh yeah, I'm supposed to be in charge here...um...*straightens up**ahem*And Greg, you can come out of hiding now. I give you the right to smack anyone in Kildare who deserves it for the duration of my birthday celebrations. Enjoy! *throws grenade for the hell of it*BO0O0O0O0/\/\!!!!!!

[AngelGuardian93]

*smirks evily*Thank you... There are no flowers, no not this time. There will be no angels gracing the lines, just these stark words I find.

[Jonas]

This is too interesting too let it rot away in the archive. Moved it to here.

[Kostalan Rottsaa]

Democracy allows Jacobus to vote, who is dumb and doesn't deserve it.

LOL!

[darcyj]

Then analyze why they survive instead of using the common rhetoric against democracy.

Amongst small-population entities, those with power concentrated in a few (oligarchy) or in one (autocracy) survive because those with the power are self-interested in maintaining and preserving the system. The system works for them and they are (almost) unimpeded in making the entity (the micronation, in our context) look and feel and operate the way they prefer.

Conversely, in small-population entities the distribution and balancing of powers means that the loss of a person or people cripples the effectiveness of government. And some of those who hold a portion of the power (delegated upwards from the masses) are compelled to implement poilcies and actions which they personally disagree wiith. This can also impede the effectiveness of government - actions are implemented slower and with less care. Finally, the small population cannot compensate for the loss or absence of key people over time.

The opposite is true of large-population entities. In a large-populaton oligarchy or autocracy the very numbers of powerless and unfulfilled/satisfied are a threat to the stability of the regime, unless it is a very good and benign regime. But a large-population democracy survives and thrives because government is responsive to public opinion and trends of the moment, allowing individuals in the population to pursue their preferred goals - the mass efficiency of the society is enabled and maximised, and this aids both the prosperity of the nation and its ability to project itself to the world; finally, a large-population democracy has the resources and the people to compensate for voids in power, to the point where those voids are invisible as people are constantly being recruited into the lower ranks of any operation and being trained to succeed to the next level.

Do I hear any dissent with this analysis?

[Andreas the Wise]

Well, Shireroth I would consider a large entity in terms of citizens, and yet it's technically an oligarchy. That said, it's a semi-consensus based oligarchy, which in my experience produces a lot less discord than a strict democracy ...

[darcyj]

I was actually thinking on a much larger scale - a worldwide scale, and not limited to micronationalism - hence Shireroth is a small entity (and Anthelia was a microscopic entity ) whilst a large entity is the United States or India.

[Aurangzeb Khan]

Even oligarchies are responsive to public opinion - the angry mob for instance can be most effacious at effecting a change in policy.

[Jonas]

Well, Shireroth I would consider a large entity in terms of citizens, and yet it's technically an oligarchy. That said, it's a semi-consensus based oligarchy, which in my experience produces a lot less discord than a strict democracy ...

Besides, we don't need to forget that common citizens can become count. This give them no real power in national politics, but gives them the rights to rule a county and do whatever they want to do with it (yes, there are restrictions). You can even behave as an independent lord (what I think is very interesting), and these things give the people the feeling that they actually have power. Even as it is on the lowest layer of society.
Ruling your own little kingdom, going to war with your neighbours and discussing problems at national level is everything you need. And it's more then you get when you're member of another nation (where in the most cases you're just a common citizen).

[Shyriath]

*Seeing that there is a thread yet extant which preserves the memory of She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named, Shyriath quietly sends word to Sunderspray that a certain amount of pillaging, looting, burning, and sacking of coastal cities would go without admonishment, and the appropriate festivities commence*

And that, right there, is indeed the joy of being a Count.

On a more serious note:

The opposite is true of large-population entities. In a large-populaton oligarchy or autocracy the very numbers of powerless and unfulfilled/satisfied are a threat to the stability of the regime, unless it is a very good and benign regime. But a large-population democracy survives and thrives because government is responsive to public opinion and trends of the moment, allowing individuals in the population to pursue their preferred goals - the mass efficiency of the society is enabled and maximised, and this aids both the prosperity of the nation and its ability to project itself to the world

Going on a bit of a tangent here: I would say to this part that it is broadly true, except to caution that it is not impossible for a democracy to reach a point at which it ceases to be true. The responsiveness of the government to public opinion is variable, and although a requirement for government officials to be elected certainly helps, it is not the crucial factor. In order to get elected, a person does not actually have to BE responsive and responsible to the public; zie merely has to convince the electorate that zie is, or is at least more so that any other candidates. This can be accomplished by having more money to spend, with all the advantages in advertising and campaigning that that brings... by being of a particular party, or NOT of a particular party, as there are people who have so strong an opinion of parties that they will base their voting on it... by having an appealing-sounding message, however vague... and/or by the number of people actually voting being small enough to by easy to sway.

And on top of that, if someone is elected enough times, they may simply accumulate enough recognition that any potential challengers would appear like nobodies in comparison. There are people who will vote for someone just because it's the only recognizable name on the ballot, or simply because it's who they've ALWAYS voted for. Someone in that position has little motivation to respond to public opinion in a substantive way, unless the situation becomes severe enough to upset long-established voting patterns. Also, a long presence in government allows the development of a power base built on contacts with other important people, rather than with the electorate; and indeed, sometimes length of service becomes a source of power in its own right, as with committee chairmanships passing to people with seniority. (This is why, generally speaking, I would greatly prefer that there were term limits for Congress in the U.S.; preferably very sharp ones. Two terms for representatives, one for senators.)

[darcyj]

(This is why, generally speaking, I would greatly prefer that there were term limits for Congress in the U.S.; preferably very sharp ones. Two terms for representatives, one for senators.)

Think about that for a second. You would put the discretionary power of lawmaking into the hands of people with less than four years' experience in that role?

If the electoral process does not allow sufficient scrutiny of challenger candidates, and does not engage the attention of the voters sufficiently for them to think about their vote rather than just vote along party lines (if at all), then the solution is NOT to weaken the experience and expertise available in the House and Senate.

[Shyriath]

Believe me, it's something I've thought about. I should perhaps say that I tend to suggest that course not so much because I feel it's the ideal one, but because the sorts of changes I would rather see are much more far-reaching, and approach snowball's-chances-in-hell probabilities of actually happening. Term limits are at least conceivable in the political future, even if still not very likely.