Sucession issue: Position of the Imperial Juudex

[Erik Mortis]

While the Kaiser Hasan I may have been honour bound to the agreement that made him Kaiser so long ago, he was not legally bound by it.

As Kaiser he had the power and authority to name ANY successor, within the confines of the Charter, and Decreebook.

With the renunciation of all non-Shireroth citizenship, Andelarion met all legal requirements that I am aware of.

Andelarion is the legitimate, legal Kaiser by rule of Imperial Succession, as laid forth in the Charter, and Imperial Law.

[Kaiser Hasan I]

My Ghost will now rest. Long Live Kaiser Andelarion Kalir!

[Erik Mortis]

We'll see. He might be the legit Kaiser, but he'll have to hold onto the throne... Which can be hard sometimes. Such interesting times we are in now.

[Hesam Jayatar]

So long as the law was regarded, my predecessor was avenged.

[Erik Mortis]

It is my job to look at the law. Say what it is. And when there is a problem, interpret it to fit the situation as best as possible, in the most sensible way possible. But in a situation such as this, the law is rather clear.

[Malliki]

The Arbiter has no power to declare which one of two pretenders to the throne is the legitimate one. Article III, section B of the Charter states that in order for the Arbiter to overturn a decision by the Kaiser (here I will, for argument's sake, refer to both Andelarion and Kaiser Loki as Kaiser) he needs the unanimous consent of both the Landsraad and the Praetor, and Kaiser Loki II&III has issued Decrees. Other than that, he has no power over the Kaiser. He certainly is not granted any power to declare who is and who isn't Kaiser, neither by the Charter, LawBook or the DecreeBook. Furthermore, no body of laws in Shireroth grants the Arbiter any role in determining conflicts in the line of succession. Most of the nobles of the land have declared their support for Loki II&III as Kaiser, therefore he should be viewed as the legitimate one. Andelarion has also submitted to this, at least that can be read between the lines in some of his more recent posts. Chapter I, section A, 3. b. prevents the Judex from taking any action that violates the supremacy of the Kaiser. This could be considered a blatant violation of that rule.

[Hesam Jayatar]

He is basing it off of the final decree of Kaiser Hasan I. Not the pretender or the Heir. Would that not mean that Jacobus is guilty of treason for overthrowing the legal Kaiser of Shireroth?

[Malliki]

The Arbiter can strike down laws passed by the Landsraad. He has no role in determining the legal successor to the throne. At least not according to law.

[Hesam Jayatar]

He is basing it off of the final decree of the last Kaiser of Shireroth in accordance with the Charter. He is not "deciding" who is Kaiser, That much was already decided in Decree 286 by Kaiser Hasan I. He is stating that it is a legal decree. The result of which is that Ric Lyon is the rightful Kaiser of Shireroth whether you like it or not.

[Malliki]

In a micronation such as Shireroth all authority rests on the citizens' will to play along, so to speak. There is no way for the government to force the nation's citizens to do anything they don't agree to. This is apparently such a case. Ric may be the lawful Kaiser, but Jacobus is the legitimate one. The late Kaiser should perhaps have explained things before he made the final decree. That doesn't really matter, since large parts of the nation sees Jacobus as the legitimate ruler. Also, saying "whether you like it or not" doesn't really work in a micronation. If we all regard Jacobus as our legitimate ruler, there is nothing you, the Arbiter, the Landsraad or anyone other can do about that.

[Ari Rahikkala]

Oh no, democracy!

[Hesam Jayatar]

Oh no, democracy!

Ari answered perfectly.

[Malliki]

Haha. This actually goes beyond democracy vs. absolutism. It goes to the will to do anything in any micronation. We all have to agree to live under an autocrat, but that also comes with an obligation for that autocrat not to do something that we find to be wrong. There are limits to the autocracy built into the system, mostly because we are internet based.

[Hesam Jayatar]

Then what you're asking for is an internet forum that discusses politics. Citizens agree to follow the rule of law for a reason. Because we are simulating a state. If citizens choose to "opt" out of following the law, they damage the character and reputation of the nation inwhich they participate. Simply, if people don't agree to follow the law, all that remains is a standard internet forum where everyone does what they like subject only to the decision of the admin/mod.

[Malliki]

But you have to agree that there is a limit to what you can ask of the citizens?

[Jonas]

I haven't any problems there is a Kaiser appointed without the approval of the people and myself, we are an absolut monarchy. And Andelarion is a good chap. But I'm disappointed and angry that promises and agreements are broken to get him on the throne.
You don't make a promise, make Jacobus Steward but just on the end he gets fired and someone else becomes Kaiser.

[Hesam Jayatar]

In a pragmatic sense yes. For the purposes of self-preservation of the state. If you continually ignore the demands of the people over a long enough time period, the citizens will either leave or attempt a civil war. The early days of micronations were plagued by them. Two different Menelmacars, The PRNSE/Free Citizen revolt, The breakup of Tymaria, The Galaxy of Cyberias, there are a thousand different examples of it.

But, this is a fundimental flaw in forum based micronations. Consider:

If it's possible, a decent definition of a micronationalist is an individual who takes part in, founds or leads a simulated or secessionist state of a small amount of people (say less than 1000).

To take part in, lead or found a government implies concent to the laws established by that government. Just as to accept citizenship is to accept the rule of law for the country in which you've joined.

Laws are instituted by the state, therefore to break the law is to be against the state.

In the real world, those who break the law are held accountable and punished for the crime. In the micronational world, those who break the law cannot be held accountable for crime. All that can happen is that the individual be expelled or ignored by his/her peers.

So, where micronational law and popular consensus differ, consensus wins. But that is not justice, that is mob rule. Because it can come to pass that consensus punishes a citizen without the presence of a crime.

We have laws without enforcements, and enforcements without reason. So, the only element that allows a forum based micronation to truely operate as a "simulated government" is common concensus. When that concensus is split or questioned, you will find that any nation in this hobby is only one argument away from complete collapse.

[Malliki]

So, where micronational law and popular consensus differ, consensus wins. But that is not justice, that is mob rule. Because it can come to pass that consensus punishes a citizen without the presence of a crime.

We have laws without enforcements, and enforcements without reason. So, the only element that allows a forum based micronation to truely operate as a "simulated government" is common concensus. When that concensus is split or questioned, you will find that any nation in this hobby is only one argument away from complete collapse.

Completely agreed.

[Hesam Jayatar]

Which means, if people don't play by the rules of the game (even when they loose) no one gets to play.

[Malliki]

Sadly, yes. But sometimes the situation is so extreme that the law is put aside. But hey, this is Shireroth, isn't revolution in our nature?

[Hesam Jayatar]

If people are not willing to obey the laws they claim to uphold, then how can they be called "Micronationalists"?

[Jonas]

A Shirerithian tradition: rebellion against those laws.


SIGN THE CONTRACT AND CREATE THE BUREAUCRATIC REPUBLIC OF SHIREROTH!

[Kaiser Loki II]

There is a distinct difference between "legal" and "right". Governments can and have taken the homes of people under eminent domain and torn them down in order to put up buildings for the wealthy that generate more tax revenue.

This has been declared "legal" but it is not "right".

Social contracts at there root are based on right, and the trust that we have in one another to do right. The late Kaiser, supported by a very small clique, out of an imagined slight, abused his authority. He may have intended to be entertaining. He may have misjudged me, and the will of the people.

On paper, Shireroth is an absolute monarchy, but that is only so because we either support or tolerate the monarch. The last succession conflict was resolved by an agreement between Hasan and myself, witnessed by they Gods Themsleves, and confirmed by a vote of the Landsraad.

I will not yield. I claim the Throne by divine right, as witnessed to by the Gods.

I also claim the throne by the Voice of the People, as witnessed to by the People yesterday. If the party of the dead hand of the dead Kaiser wish to plunge the nation into Civil War, it is their choice. I will not yield.

This situation shows that reforms are needed. Kaiser Loki II will work for reforms that preserve our culture and prevent such abuses in the future.

Who is with me?

Loki, Second of the name, by the Grace of the Gods and the voice of the People, Kaiser of Shireroth

[Malliki]

This is a hobby. This is actually the first time since I joined the hobby in *quick check* 1999 that I have not acted in accordance with the law.

[Jonas]

Loki II! Loki II! Loki II!



I support the rightful Kaiser, Loki II. Eventually this will lead to a Civil War.

[Ari Rahikkala]

This is a hobby. This is actually the first time since I joined the hobby in *quick check* 1999 that I have not acted in accordance with the law.

Yeah, Yardistan does that to you

Oh, and by the way... who gets to say let the dream of confusion lead you into the virgin light? ... wait... I just said it... sorry about that

[Braden Indianensis]

Do you know why attempts to democratize Shireroth invariably fail? Because the majority of the people are against democracy. In this sense, Shireroth's absolutism is essentially democratic.

But I must say, what is the point of the Arbiter issuing any kind of ruling in this matter? If Jacobus believed himself to be the Kaiser, he could very easily take steps to overturn--or perhaps, just completely ignore--this ruling. After all, it's not as if you really have any kind of constitution that would bind the Kaiser. Not only is the Kaiser above the law, he IS the law.

[Kaiser Loki II]

And I attempt to respect the Founder.

[Hesam Jayatar]

Then what of respect for his ruling?

[Kaiser Loki II]

The Gods are above all, and the Gods have not spoken. I said I respect the Founder, but I'm miffed with the Imperial Judex.