Draft of proposed treaty with Nelaga

[Jacobus Loki]

Treaty of Amity
between
The Imperial Republic of Shireroth
and
The Nelaga Territories

Recognizing the common histories, cultures, and mutual long-term plans between our two countries, Shireroth and Nelaga hereby enter into a state of joint ownership and administration of the Island of Amity. Both parties agree to the following terms:

1. Shireroth and Nelaga shall enjoy a perpetual state of non-aggression, peace, friendship, and cooperation, barring consensual mutual conflict (known more commonly as "recwars") agreed upon by both nations.
2. Both states shall own the island of Amity. Citizens from each state may travel freely in the spirit of friendship to the island and other territories of each state. The Micronational Cartography Society will label the island with both Shirerithian and Nelagan colors. The exact extent of the laws that shall affect Amity shall be decided by mutual consent of both countries, with the default situation of any conflicting laws being negated entirely.
3. No restrictions are placed upon how each country can classify Amity as far as internal territory divisions are concerned.
4. Both nations may create a forum for administering the Island of Amity. However. the main board for discussing matters that affect both nations shall be administered by Shireroth.
5. The foreign affairs and defense of the island will be the responsibility of both governments. This treaty places no other military obligations on either country.
6. The Nelagan-controlled organization JASO shall be relocated to Amity Island.
7. JASO shall be opened fully and without restrictions to both the Shirerithian government and private citizens of Shireroth. Shireroth shall retain permanent joint control over any technical work developed by a citizen or organization of Shireroth.
8. The board for JASO's main organization and development shall be administered by Nelaga.
9. Both Shireroth and Nelaga shall be inseparable, permanent members of the UMapper Cartography Project. Full technical and personal and cooperation on this project shall exist between both countries.
10. The Island of Amity shall be the first professionally developed map for the UMapper Cartography Project, and both nations shall retain control over the rights and development of that map.
11. Modifications to this agreement shall occur only by mutual consent of both nations.
12. If, for any reason, either nation withdrawls or abandons this agreement without mutual consent, they waive full control of the island of Amity as well as all involvement in JASO and the UMapper Cartography Project.
13. Should the government of either nation permanently fall into disarray, the other nation gains full control over Amity, JASO, and the UMapper Cartography Project, under the assumption that the establishment of a new government or an obvious successor state shall enjoy all privileges previously granted by this agreement.
14. This agreement is based upon mutual respect and the desire for both nations to create both stronger, better nations for themselves as well as a better micronational community. As such, upon their honor, both nations agree not to attempt to use any of the terms of this treaty for obvious gain over the other, that any obvious loopholes shall be considered unfortunate typos in wording rather than legally-backed mandates, and that they shall attempt to work out any conflicts regarding the terms of this agreement with civility.

I think its a good idea.

A- I brings JASO back to us.

B- Nelaga is very close to Shireroth culturally.

C- It will bring attention, and hopefully development to Yardistan.

[Shyriath]

12. If, for any reason, either nation withdrawls or abandons this agreement without mutual consent, they waive full control of the island of Amity as well as all involvement in JASO and the UMapper Cartography Project.
13. Should the government of either nation permanently fall into disarray, the other nation gains full control over Amity, JASO, and the UMapper Cartography Project, under the assumption that the establishment of a new government or an obvious successor state shall enjoy all privileges previously granted by this agreement.

I like these clauses. 12 gives both parties strong incentive to keep things working; 13 seems pretty fair about forfeit-by-collapse. Shireroth would keep its stake in Amity unless it a) did something stupid, or b) died, and even in the latter case the agreement would still have a chance of carrying on.

[Jacobus Loki]

....and the Hawshire agreement is precedent.

Plus we aren't giving anything away, we are sharing our resources with friends.

[Harvey Steffke]

I'm glad you too seem to understand what I was thinking with some of those clauses.

[Kaiser Ometeotl I]

I'm not to keen on that clause. Shireroth should be able to exit if it wants, and not risk land. I see no reason to sign this to begin with. JASO doesn't do much that I know of. And we could easily assist with this program without sacrificing land that we've held for 9 years.

[Harvey Steffke]

Erik claims that "he'll give it another look later" but I'm personally not too amused by the fast dismissive attitude.

[Jacobus Loki]

....at least this would be doing things differently............

[Kaiser Ometeotl I]

I looked it over again.

12. If, for any reason, either nation withdrawls or abandons this agreement without mutual consent, they waive full control of the island of Amity as well as all involvement in JASO and the UMapper Cartography Project.

Still bothers me. I'm sure some see the benefits of this project, and JASO. But as of yet. I've honestly seen nothing from JASO in recent times, and an organization/project no one has even bothered to tell me what it is about. And to relinquish lands, and possibly risk losing them forever, I don't really see the mutual gain. Harvey gets land he's been pining over for years, whether wholly or partly, and Shireroth gets to look like we are losing control of even more lands to foreign powers.

This isn't me dismissing it out of hand. I honestly don't see any concrete benefit for Shireroth. I only see benefit for Nelaga gaining control of Shireroth land, while trying to promise...what in return?

If that clause was modified to allow us to leave this treaty, with out lands, I would support this. Maybe put a time limit on it or something. But I feel hesitant to support this as it's currently written. I'm not saying we get Amity, JASO and the project if we leave. Just Amity. If this project works out, then the treaty would remain, and we have no issues.

I know this stance won't please, Harvey, and I'm sorry. But I really think I need to look out for the interest of Shireroth in these times.

[Kaiser Ometeotl I]

-Because it shows we are open to new projects-

Shireroth sumus. Tempus in parte nostrum est.

-Because Nelaga, nice at it is, will probably not outlive Shireroth, and we will get everything back, and probably more, in time.

-Because, gods forbid, we do disappear, who better to carry on a legacy.

-Because they are giving back in essence 1/2 of what they paid us a big bag of erb for, and aren't asking for any money.

-Because almost every Nelagan is a joint Shirithain, so we are sharing with us.

-Because very smart long time friendly mnists swear it will be awesome, and we could use some awesome right about now.

What exactly is this project?

[Jacobus Loki]

Scott Alexander wrote:
What's this UMapper project? It sounds like the sort of thing one might want to clandestinely gain influence in until one could take it over.

Oh, it is. Think google maps for custom images. You upload a file (the higher the resolution, the better, though it can't take vector graphics directly) and decorate it with custom pins that can have text boxes, images, links, even music files. Since you have as much detail as you want, you can label essentially anything and everthing. The (very) long term goal is to get a few of these and link them together, creating a sort of modern-day FIoJ Virtual Tour, except with less geocities and pixelly graphics and midi loops (though I might put the midis as click-able pins! ) and more general mapping excellence.

The technical demo that I showed people has gone private (darn you, Hesam!) but you might be able to figure out the gist of it by browsing around http://www.umapper.com/

[Harvey Steffke]

we could easily assist with this program without sacrificing land that we've held for 9 years.

But you aren't. You aren't doing anything like that on a national level, you haven't in years, and I'm not sure you can at this point. The benefit to Shireroth wouldn't be so much the maps as getting some apparently much-needed assistance on working on a project on the national level.

JASO doesn't do much that I know of.

Stuff JASO is doing now and then:

http://nelaga.info/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=854
http://nelaga.info/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=998
http://nelaga.info/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=353
http://nelaga.info/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=235
http://nelaga.info/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=934
http://nelaga.info/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=616

Have to dig a little for some of those, but they're there. Issue right now isn't so much not having enough stuff but having too much stuff and having to decide which we want to "put into production" and make part of Nelaga's known recwar units.

Come outside Shireroth's borders some time; the rest of the world is interesting. They even have cloud backgrounds that change depending on time of day.

But no, I'm not going to debate this up and down. The fact is that energy and creativity still exists in some parts of this hobby and if Shireroth doesn't want to be a part of that because their "interests" involve isolationism and chilly attitudes towards foreigners, than that's one less nation I need to keep involved. Shireroth can be an island if they want, constantly playing with their laws in an attempt to chase the spark everyone else already holds in their hands.

Because of national decisions like this, Kildare is more of a micronation than Shireroth is. Elwynn too, and they realized it.

Get back to me if chance your mind.

[Malliki Tosha]

FREE ELWYNN!

[Jonas]

Is Kildare a nation?

[Kaiser Ometeotl I]

Like I said. I'd support this is that clause 12 was adjusted. Make it something like we have to stay in for at least X months 6-12 maybe. And we have to give X months of notice. Then I could support this without issues.

[Jacobus Loki]

Your Niftyness, I will go fuss about that in Nelaga for a while.

Jonas, IMHO, Kildare became Shireroth, the preserver of All Things Shirithain while Shireroth was in doubt of itself. The two are of the same spirit, identical yet distinct.

[Kaiser Ometeotl I]

See what you can do. Nelaga are good and old friends, and I really do wish to see a closer relationship with them. I just have.. concerns.

[Harvey Steffke]

Please notice: http://nelaga.info/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1016

Looking for input from all citizens, Shirerithian and Nelagan. Be brutally honest and fair about what you feel to avoid arguing down the line.

[Kaiser Ometeotl I]

I'll agree on the brutally honest, and everyone's input would be good, so it's not just me.

[Shyriath]

My opinion has been duly recorded in said thread.

[Harvey Steffke]

Mango-Garp Accord
between
The Imperial Republic of Shireroth
and
The Nelaga Territories

Recognizing the common histories, cultures, and mutual long-term plans between our two countries, Shireroth and Nelaga hereby enter into a state of joint ownership and administration of the Island of Amity. Both parties agree to the following terms:

1. Shireroth and Nelaga shall enjoy a perpetual state of non-aggression, peace, friendship, and cooperation, barring consensual mutual conflict (known more commonly as "recwars") agreed upon by both nations.
2. Both states shall own the island of Amity. Citizens from each state may travel freely in the spirit of friendship to the island and other territories of each state. The Micronational Cartography Society will label the island with both Shirerithian and Nelagan colors. The exact extent of the laws that shall affect Amity shall be decided by mutual consent of both countries, with the default situation of any conflicting laws being negated entirely.
3. No restrictions are placed upon how each country can classify Amity as far as internal territory divisions are concerned.
4. Both nations may create a forum for administering the Island of Amity. However. the main board for discussing matters that affect both nations shall be administered by Shireroth.
5. The foreign affairs and defense of the island will be the responsibility of both governments. This treaty places no other military obligations on either country.
6. The Nelagan-controlled organization JASO shall be relocated to Amity Island.
7. JASO shall be opened fully and without restrictions to both the Shirerithian government and private citizens of Shireroth. Shireroth shall retain permanent joint control over any technical work developed by a citizen or organization of Shireroth.
8. The board for JASO's main organization and development shall be administered by Nelaga.
9. Both Shireroth and Nelaga shall be inseparable, permanent members of the UMapper Cartography Project. Full technical and personal and cooperation on this project shall exist between both countries.
10. The Island of Amity shall be the first professionally developed map for the UMapper Cartography Project, and both nations shall retain control over the rights and development of that map.
11. Modifications to this agreement shall occur only by mutual consent of both nations.
12. This agreement will last a minimum of two realtime years from the day that it has been approved by both countries. After that point, either nation may give a unilateral notice to withdraw that becomes legally valid after 3 months and will end this accord permanently in its entirety. The nations may enforce any withdraw terms they mutually agree to, but if no terms are agreed upon, the defaults shall be that Shireroth regains full control of Amity, JASO is moved back to a Nelagan location of their choosing, and all UMapper maps become the sole works of the individual that put the most personal time into them.
13. If, for any reason, either nation withdraws or abandons this agreement without mutual consent or following proper procedure to withdraw as outlined above, they waive full control of the island of Amity as well as all involvement in JASO and the UMapper Cartography Project.
14. Should the government of either nation permanently fall into disarray, the other nation gains full control over Amity, JASO, and the UMapper Cartography Project, under the assumption that the establishment of a new government or an obvious successor state shall enjoy all privileges previously granted by this agreement.
15. This agreement is based upon mutual respect and the desire for both nations to create both stronger, better nations for themselves as well as a better micronational community. As such, upon their honor, both nations agree not to attempt to use any of the terms of this treaty for obvious gain over the other, that any obvious loopholes shall be considered unfortunate typos in wording rather than legally-backed mandates, and that they shall attempt to work out any conflicts regarding the terms of this agreement with civility.

The modified draft, that everyone seems to be more or less in agreement on. Underlined sections are new.

[Kaiser Ometeotl I]

I whole heatedly approve of this treaty.

[Jonas]

So... does this need approval by the Landsraad or is Your nifty stamp enough?

[Kaiser Ometeotl I]

I'm gonna send it before the Landsraad. Unless something needs Immediate acting upon, I'll be sending most stuff, hell anything I can, before the Landsraad.

[Jonas]

Brrr. Did I feel the cold breath of democracy in my neck?

[Kaiser Ometeotl I]

Maybe. I'm trying to encourage participation and activity.

[Jonas]

So... an Absolutism-with-a-powerfull-Kaiser-but-with-all-of-our-citizens-participating-in-the-legislation Policy?

[Kaiser Ometeotl I]

Yes. While the Kaiser can hold the fort on his own. I feel it is important that everyone be involved in the government, it's operations and policies.

[Harvey Steffke]

I am pleased to announce that Nelaga has passed the Mango-Garp Accord unanimously.

http://nelaga.info/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=1026

[Kaiser Ometeotl I]

Excellent! I think we're just waiting on the vote to formally end on our end, but it looks to have passed without any Nays... (effectively unanimous).

[Harvey Steffke]

Outstanding. Once I have official word of your acceptance, I will inform the MCS of these negotiations.