Negotiations with Elwynn

[Erik Mortis]

Ric and I have been talking.. and I think something can be worked out. I have heard a quick overview of grievances, and can even agree with them.

1. The Houses system will and must end.
2. A restoration of Local Prerogative.
3. Protections for subdivisions on matters of culture and internal governance.
4. A more Confederate like government for Shireroth shall be formed.

As for other issues.. those will take more thought.

[Daniel Farewell]

Statement:

These items form the basis of formal negotiations but the de facto separation will remain in place for the time being as Elwynn has issues it wishes to see addressed.

Whereas the Provisional Government of Elwynn has discussed the pertinent issues at the heart of this with Mr Mortis and we are encouraged by the evidence of a certain willingness to contemplate the necessity of change, we feel that his view is still too prescriptive - that our rights and identity would be 'guaranteed' by the Imperial Government strikes at the heart of the malaise, illustrating it perfectly.

Elwynn continues to regard itself as a friend of its brother nations still within Shireroth and advocates measures for democratisation and devolution for the Republic as a whole, which if acted upon favourably by the regime of Kaiser B'Caw would potentially prove conducive to reconciliation.

[Daniel Farewell]

Or, in other words:

We're happy for the willingness to change, but much needs to still be adressed!

[Erik Mortis]

Wait.. what?

Why do I feel like I got the smile and nod while talking to you.. but the frown and glare when I walked away...?

...that our rights and identity would be 'guaranteed' by the Imperial Government strikes at the heart of the malaise, illustrating it perfectly.

Okey, you lost me. I don't see how us giving you what you want illustrates anything other then our/my attempt to restore the unity of the Empire, yet create an environment that fosters and supports the unique culture and people of Elwynn, and the other to-be duchies.

You desire to be recognized as a unique, whole and unified people, I'm accepting that, and striving to make that completely possible while maintaining the unity of the Shirerithian people and Empire. If this is some trifle over some concept of sovereignty then understand I'm a pragmatist. I have no interest in concepts, just reality. If you want there to be wording in the end result stating the "sovereignty" of the Duchies, that can be achieved, as long as it is strictly clear what that means in the greater scheme of things. I understand that Elwynn has always been a culture of literature and poetry, so having it stated clearly and loudly that you have sovereignty to rule yourselves within the framework of a greater Empire and Confederacy may be important.

Personally I have issues with the very word sovereignty because it's honestly ill-defined and possibly useless in a micronational sense.

[Daniel Farewell]

Oh no, you misinterpret me. You still have my smile and my understanding, Erik There is no frown, there is no glare. This is not personaal, what I tried to mean is that you are referencing the "old Shireroth" while what Elwynn's aspirations are lie in the "new order" of things.

[Erik Mortis]

As long as the result is still Shireroth. That's my open and honest goal.

[Jacobus Loki]

(nevermind)

[Jonas]

Elwynn continues to regard itself as a friend of its brother nations still within Shireroth and advocates measures for democratisation and devolution for the Republic as a whole, which if acted upon favourably by the regime of Kaiser B'Caw would potentially prove conducive to reconciliation.

You really want to lose our support, don't you?

[Jonas]

On the other hand, I'm not sure that we should go on with a dialogue as long as Elwynn plays a vassal state of Antica. They (Antica) shouldn't profit of our problems.

I'm getting pretty annoyed by such behavior and perhaps it would simply be better for Shireroth to ignore them. If Ashkenatza and Antica want to generate activity, then they can just try some bombs to each other.
And I'm not saying that I don't want a recwar, but moving to another forum (more importantly: a forum of an other nation) is one step to far in my eyes.

[Andreas the Wise]

Daniel, if this goes on long enough that I'm not feeling bogged down with assessment, I'd appreciate talking about what you're trying to do with the whole secession thing. But no rush.

[Daniel Farewell]

I'm not trying to loose anyone support. If we have committed treason, then so be it. We in Elwynn did this because we felt it was in the best interests of Elwynn. We are no vassal state of Antica; we are a free people.

[Jonas]

I'm not trying to loose anyone support. If we have committed treason, then so be it. We in Elwynn did this because we felt it was in the best interests of Elwynn. We are no vassal state of Antica; we are a free people.

Hah! Don't let me laugh. Moving to another forum (from a foreign nation!) is an unnecessary action as the things that you have / want to do, can be done here. Ari himself is Antican, so if you don't trust Erik as admin, then you can always walk to Ari to solve things out.
Except if this is just a way of the Ellwynese to get countries involved in this situation, I don't see any reason (and even if that was the reason: they don't have anything to do with this*).

[Daniel Farewell]

My laughing Jonas,

Elwynn has no desire to bring conflict to the area and I have repeatedly assured representatives of the Shirerithian crown of this. I can only lament the fact that our quest for a peaceful solution has not spread here. We are not mustering support from other countries. We have not asked a single country for either recognition or support of troops. For what other countries do, Elwynn does not answer.

You know me, Jonas. Everyone in Shireroth knows me. I am no troll spreading fear and scum upon the face of the earth. You know that. Trust me when I say that I did this, together with other Elwynnese, in what we believed were in the interests of the Elwynnese people and Elwynn's future.

I don't take any decisions lightly. You know that I am a non-confrontational man. You know that. But I now I actually defend something, the place I began to love, where I matured in micronationalism, where friends came, a place I nurtured together with others for many years.

Like Elwynn is in my heart, I believe the unity of Shireroth is in Erik's. Perhaps, and I hope, that something good can come out of this that would appease both the Elwynnese and the Shirerithians.

Furthermore, I need to point out that through the years, Elwynn is not just me...

[Jonas]

Hhmm. You know me, Daniel, and you know that I'm frustrated right now when I see how Elwynn is letting Antica make profit from the conflict. I don't see these 'best interests' when it comes to a move to that forum. The other things I understand (I even took time to respond to the current list of demands, which I didn't ignore, nor disapprove), but not the forum move.

[Harvey Steffke]

My laughing Jonas,

Daniel, you're the best.

[Jacobus Loki]

As a former Duke of Elwynn, I understand the goal, and heartily disapprove of the methods being used.

[Erik Mortis]

As I said Daniel, it might make things easier if you returned to these boards. I have already shown you that things won't just return to how they were. But we need a sign from your side to match our own signs. I said many are uneasy about your fleeing to the arms of a foreign power, who only wants the profit they can get from this event. If reconciliation is truly possible it will take give from both sides. Our government has already begun work to address the issues that led to this event, now we need something from you in return.

[Chrimigules]

On the other hand, I'm not sure that we should go on with a dialogue as long as Elwynn plays a vassal state of Antica. They (Antica) shouldn't profit of our problems.

Here is the offer that I gave to Daniel. Free forumspace for as long as the Elwynnese wish it, including permissions settings that forbid Antican administrators from being able to view forums that are set to be Elwynnese-only. If Elwynn decides to become an independent country, and they want to retain any posts made in Antica, I'll see what I can do to pull those posts out and hand the files to the Elwynnese.

It is not Antica's goal, official or unofficial, to coax Elwynn into joining Antica. The only profit that we want to get out of this is ensuring that this matter be dealt with in such a way that both sides can come to mutual agreement. It's already looking like things are going along in that direction, so I don't expect the Elwynnese presence on the Antican boards to be for very long.

[Erik Mortis]

I do find that reassuring to hear from Antica. Whether that statement is official or not, I don't know. But it is reassuring.

[Daniel Farewell]

Erik,

You seem to have a very fast pace in negotiations! We're not quite keeping up in all developments. With many RL activities on about, as well as taking into account the general atmosphere of both the Elwynnese People and the Shirerithian discussions on the negotiations, things do take time. I'd like us to slow down a bit.

In return, we shall draft a law for Elwynn that could be used within a confederal Shireroth so you would see what Elwynn had in mind. Once the draft is complete and has the support of the Elwynnese people, we shall return to formal negotiations between representatives of Elwynn and the Shirerithian crown.

Daniel.

[Erik Mortis]

I like to get things done.

[Jonas]

I like to get things done.

I don't blame you. We shouldn't wait to long.

[Daniel Farewell]

Of course not, but stressing through these talks will ensure no mandate for change from the nobles of Shireroth, the Kaiser, or the Elwynnese people.

[Erik Mortis]

I'm working to make this happen while we have the momentum to make them happen. You yourself said you didn't want things to just drift back to how they were.

[Kaiser B'caw I]

Resuming my place in negotiations:

First, my thanks to Chrimigules for providing some clarification of Antica's role in this matter. Although the arrangement is not the one we would have preferred to see, I am glad to know that it is not meant to harm Shireroth's interests.

Second, to Daniel: I can understand a desire to formulate Elwynn's vision, and to take the time to do so properly. Nonetheless, I also put it to you that Erik does have a point. Engagement postponed too long ceases to be engagement, whatever the intent of the postponement may be.

In any event, I would like to hear your input, however provisional, concerning the proposals in the "Drafting a New Government" thread, and how well they are likely to mesh with whatever ideas are being discussed among the Elwynnese.

[Daniel Farewell]

Majesty,

It's good to see you return. So, perhaps we could assume real negotiations now with Aurangzeb Khan and me for the Elwynnese, and You and, perhaps, Erik for Shireroth. A closed forum would be appreciated.

As a token of good will, we offer Shireroth to establish a closed forum for these representatives. Elwynn will there discuss more intimately its vision for itself and for a confederal Shireroth.

In the mean time, as the Elwynese diaspora turns to have a national conversation on the negotiations with Shireroth, I believe that the discussions brought forward in the thread concerned are a positive way forward.

Now, this I say as a private person and as no representative of Elwynn, for our views are different:

When I talked to Erik, we discussed the vision of having Shireroth turn to a confederal union of free "Peoples". The divisions of the confederation would be ruled by their people in accordance with their people's wishes. They would rally behind an imperial government which would take care of the defence of the confederation, the day-to-day foreign affairs and the administration of the board.

If each People had one representative in the Landsraad with as many votes as its population. If we scrapped feudal terms as duchy, barony, etc, with the kaiser provided for as by Erik explained. The Kaiser would be the head of the confederation that way.

If this has your blessing, I'll work something out with the Elwynnese national conversation and see how they would respond. But naturally, it is every people's desire to rule it self. In the meantime, Elwynn's independence stands, but we will as long as negotiations are held not seek other states' diplomatic relations.

[Kaiser B'caw I]

I am pleased with your willingness to hold negotiations within Shireroth, and of course we would view very positively a continuing policy of not pursuing diplomatic relations with foreign powers. Both will be conducive to a good atmosphere for the negotiations.

I find the request for a closed forum to be a reasonable one. I will ask Erik to create such a forum with permissions for him, myself, you, and Aurangzeb Khan as negotiators, and engage in discussions there.

As clarification, however, I would prefer that the participants not be sworn to strict secrecy; as dicussions about the shape of the government will still be continuing in this forum, and the negotiations are likely to impact those discussions (and vice versa), being able to communicate certain points of progress may be vital. For your part, I assume that it would be beneficial for the Elwynnese to discuss the state of negotiations among themselves as well.

[Erik Mortis]

I think the Elwynn are starting to push a bit to much, and give to little in return. A call for the complete dismantlement of all historic titles and institutions is quite a demand. You talk of your own culture, yet care nothing of the culture of the empire, or other duchies.

[Kaiser B'caw I]

I think that falls under Daniel's views as a private person, rather than as a representative of Elwynn.

Regardless, abolishing the titles for everyone is a move that would require widespread agreement, precisely because it is an element of Shirerithian culture. Abolishing them within Elwynn itself, on the other hand, is something I do not mind discussing in private.

[Daniel Farewell]

B'Caw understands me!

Of course, Elwynn believes that every people has the right to decide what type of government they shall have. So if Kildare wants to remain dutchy, then so be it. Et cetera.