Commonwealth idea

[Jonas]

Okay, okay, no elections for a president and democracy.

I think the best is to have a currency with an equal value, it's simple and avoids never-ending discussions about the exhange rate. We don't use one currency, we use different currencies with the same value.

[Erik Mortis]

Isn't that the same thing as a unified currency? We just don't have the convenience of a central bank?

Once again, I don't really see voting fraud as an issue. Just make a law disallowing whatever mechanism you see for that purpose, then if we see suspicious behavior, an admin checks the logs, and tells the Judex, who takes the money if they feel fraud is happening.

Also, prohibit people from having multiple accounts, thus you have to register to 1 nation if you are a duel cit. If you want to be counted in a Shireroth duchy vote count you have to have your account registered to Shireroth, and thus can't move the money from one account to another. Also, nations can only tax accounts registered to their nation. If a nation moves money to influence a vote in our nation, we have law that allows us to confiscate the money. And, the amounts that would have to be moved to make a noticeable change would be inherently noticeable.

So yes. I don't see these "significant voting and fraud faults".

[Jonas]

Isn't that the same thing as a unified currency? We just don't have the convenience of a central bank?

It's indeed the same thing as a unified currency, but I hope will use a central bank to make things easy.

Also, prohibit people from having multiple accounts, thus you have to register to 1 nation if you are a duel cit. If you want to be counted in a Shireroth duchy vote count you have to have your account registered to Shireroth, and thus can't move the money from one account to another. Also, nations can only tax accounts registered to their nation. If a nation moves money to influence a vote in our nation, we have law that allows us to confiscate the money. And, the amounts that would have to be moved to make a noticeable change would be inherently noticeable.

I want an account in Shireroth and one in Batavia. So I can avoid that the Batavian money doesn't effect the power of Kildare in Landsraad.
I wouldn't prohibit international transactions between both accounts, but if you do it then you need to give a good explanation.

[b3n|<3r|\|]

Also, prohibit people from having multiple accounts, thus you have to register to 1 nation if you are a duel cit. If you want to be counted in a Shireroth duchy vote count you have to have your account registered to Shireroth, and thus can't move the money from one account to another. Also, nations can only tax accounts registered to their nation. If a nation moves money to influence a vote in our nation, we have law that allows us to confiscate the money. And, the amounts that would have to be moved to make a noticeable change would be inherently noticeable.

I know you hate the idea of anyone having citizenship outside of Shireroth Erik, but does that mean you're gonna punish those who do - even if they're citizen of a nation we're having an ECONOMIC UNION with?!

[Erik Mortis]

I'm just trying to find solutions to Andreas' issue with a unified currency, and our voting system. As I see it the only issue with really from duel cits. Thus my suggestion dealing only with duel cits.

I'm also unclear how there is really an issue.

[b3n|<3r|\|]

Jonas is a Shirerithian and a Batavian. As a citizen of both, he would prolly like to participate in both's economies. He can only have one account. That one account has to be registered to either Shireroth or Batavia. So he's either bankrupt in Shireroth and rich in Batavia or vice versa.

[Erik Mortis]

The money is usable in both. It's not 2 separate economies.. it's one unified economy, and currency. He can register his account to Shireroth, and still use the money in other Commonwealth nations. Where you register only matters for reasons of taxes and in Shireroth, duchy voting power.


I can register my account to Shireroth, go to Batavia and contract some bloke there to make me a graphic, then move the money to his account. He and I are both in the same bank (the one we use now), and money moves freely between us.

If I'm a duel cit, I have to choose what nation I register my account to. If I register in Shireroth, my money is counted toward my duchy's vote, and subject to Shireroth taxes. If I register in say.. Batavia, my money is not counted toward my Duchy's vote, and is subject to Batavian taxes.

If you are not a citizen of a nation, you cannot register your account in that nation, nor be subject to their tax law. But you can still do business easily with that nations citizens.
If you are not a Shireroth cit, your money is NOT counted toward a Duchy's vote power because you cannot register your account to Shireroth. No control of votes by foreign powers can occur by this means.

So, the only real economy law set down by the commonwealth would be:
1. "You must register an account to a nation which you are a citizen of."
2. "You can have only one account."
3. "A nation may only apply taxes to accounts registered to their nation, by their citizens."

All other laws would be set by the individual nations, and would conform to the Commonwealth Economic Policies.

[Andreas the Wise]

Erik, I'm not sure you understand the subtelties of "different currency systems" that I'm alluding too. I don't know about Batavie. I can see that your system would work well if it were being implemented in a nation with one of those dud economies with money tied to nothing - for them, the erb is still worthless (to them) and thus has no problem.

The economies I'm saying it won't fit with are different styles of economies. Post based economies, for example. It's quite plausible to have a post based economy with only 100 000 in circulation, where the government taxes enough money to remove all the extra money that entered circulation via posting AND to pay citizens bounties. However, you can't possibly do that with a central bank. (besides, its wealth tax, also incompatible with CITRA). And CITRA you probably haven't read up on. It stands for Constant Inter-Toketi Recwar Association. CITRA currency is literally a currency where 1 CITRA point = 1 SNARL point. Your money is the size of the army you can have. And each person is given 50 000 points to begin with. In that sense, saying 1 CITRA point = 1 erb is not going to work in the slightest ...

That all being said ... we're not arguing on the purpose of the union. We're arguing over the best means to carry it out. I agree that expanding the economy so that there are more people to interact is a good thing. I disagree that the best way to do this is a unified currency. It's easiest, yet, but it's really, really nasty to all the other nations "No, give up on your useful economy, take erb! For us they give us votes, but for you, they're just pieces of paper!". If I just have an account registered in Kildare, then if, say, Novatainia pays huge bounties compared to Shireroth, it might be a fair value compared to other Novatainians but unfair compared to Shireroth. Tax can be hit thrice. I'm either going to be insanely rich because every nation gives me starting money, or insanely poor because everyone taxes me. Not to mention inflationary problems if money is constantly moving between Duchies and non-duchies (and so becoming and leaving voting circulation).

I'm saying the best way is to have instantaneous, marketable exchange. That is, if Novatainian A wants product from Shirithian B for x erb, they go to me, Nova-Shire money changer, and I give them x erb for y CITRA points (with a small margin for myself, of course). I pay x erb straight to Shirithian B, and they do the service for Novatainian A. No Shirithian money leaves or enters the economy. The money spent comes straight from my account. I do it because I value both currencies (and make a small margin either way). Because there's no set exchange rate, I can negotiate what seems fair for the person. Bayen, Prodigy and Corey could do the same with CITRA. If other nations have worthwhile currencies, and have dual cits, they can do the same. If they don't have a worthwhile currency, they won't have objections to unifying. My method is slightly more complicated, but it resolves all the voting and inflationary arguments, and does what Hesam wanted - creates more private transactions. It also creates an industry for advertising on other nations.

What we're both against is a flat exchange rate. I don't know about you, but I'm against it because if you don't have someone at the other end, what you're doing is creating money in one economy (via admin) and deleting it in the other. Not a good idea ...

Does that explain it much better?

[Ari Rahikkala]

I think the best is to have a currency with an equal value, it's simple and avoids never-ending discussions about the exhange rate. We don't use one currency, we use different currencies with the same value.

But equal-value currency is just currency with automatic exchange at a 1:1 rate

I haven't been following this discussion too closely, but for what I did read... I don't see why people aren't just going with Andreas' way. Currency exchange by private enterprise, according to whatever rate each exchanger wants to set. It's clean and simple, and while the system itself isn't broken it's bound to produce chances for arbitrage, which will make things that much more fun

[Bayen]

I've agreed with Andreas all along... :P

[Andreas the Wise]

We´ll call it the Bayen/Andreas idea then, shall we?
Besides just increasing access to the economy, we should consider other purposes for the Commonwealth. As far as I can grasp, the original idea was membership was only open to those who hold land previously held by Shireroth (though later nations that really supported us were allowed in too). The idea of that is that Shireroth can help the culture of the `lost lands´ to be reincorporated into the present holders, while not having to claim the land themselves. It could even be a clause in the commonwealth that Shireroth will not try and reclaim land held by a member nation (not that we would anyway, but confirming it ). I think that cultural/historical aspect should certainly be retained.

The other potential is for combined sporting activities, or other combined cultural activities, or even Cedrist missions to other nations.

A final option, of course, is to use it as a base for a Shirithian military bloc, but I suspect its best to keep any military stuff right out of this and keep the treaty purely cultural/economic. If some of those nations choose to fight with us or get military treaties later, good. If not, shouldn´t affect their place in the commonwealth.

[Erik Mortis]

I hereby exit this discussion.

[Jonas]

Andreas, I started this topic because Batavia wants to create a commonwealth with their allies too. It's not just Shireroth's commonwealth anymore, nobody will see Shireroth as more important (but we can work on that ).

To let the economy work, a central bank is needed. From experience I know that working with (private) companies or organisations will fail.

[b3n|<3r|\|]

I'm just a Count, but I don't Shireroth is really interested in a YAMO or economic union. I thought this economic business was an extension of our Commonwealth with Batavia. And I was still hoping you'd recognise the Kaiser as Super-Duper-FigureHead of State.

[Jonas]

I'm just a Count, but I don't Shireroth is really interested in a YAMO or economic union. I thought this economic business was an extension of our Commonwealth with Batavia. And I was still hoping you'd recognise the Kaiser as Super-Duper-FigureHead of State.

It is in a way, but recognition of the Kaiser as Head of the State is impossible (for now). He never visited us and can't even speak Dutch.
A cultural, military and economic union to bring Batavia and Shireroth together. Maybe if both nations know each other better...
And don't forget that if Batavia recognise the Kaiser as head the MCS will complain.

[Oroigawa Koreyasu]

...I'm Steward and I can speak German and a bit of Swedish...

[b3n|<3r|\|]

Batavia can have its own King or President or other Head of State, I would have you recognise him as a new position that means nothing.

But I don't mind if you don't wanna, that's fine. But I don't really like the idea of Shireroth entering an organisation or union like this without it being within a "greater Shireroth" type thing.

[Jonas]

Batavia can have its own King or President or other Head of State, I would have you recognise him as a new position that means nothing.

But I don't mind if you don't wanna, that's fine. But I don't really like the idea of Shireroth entering an organisation or union like this without it being within a "greater Shireroth" type thing.

You forget that I'm not the only Batavian, that a lot of Batavians don't know Batavia very well (that's why I want this commonwealth) and that we are speaking about a Dutch micronation. Dutch micronationalists are mostly serious and not as nuts as I am
Why do you think almost every Dutch nation is / was a republic and democracy? Only in Batavia nobles and a non-elected head of state isn't seen as evil.

[Erik Mortis]

"He never visited us and can't even speak Dutch. " Never stopped Queen Victory becoming Empress of India..

[Jonas]

"He never visited us and can't even speak Dutch. " Never stopped Queen Victory becoming Empress of India..

... and most Dutch micronationalists don't like colonies too

[Erik Mortis]

I think we can blame the Spanish for that?

[Bayen]

How do you know private companies will fail? >_> They seem like the best idea... and if not that, then even individual trading...

And Toketi has non-elected nobles and a non-elected head of state. We're not evil!

[Jonas]

I think we can blame the Spanish for that?

That didn't stopped us to get our own colonies.

How do you know private companies will fail? >_> They seem like the best idea... and if not that, then even individual trading...

And Toketi has non-elected nobles and a non-elected head of state. We're not evil!

Because it was tried in the Dutch sector. An organisation which organised transactions (and still does), but it goes slow because it isn't automated. A central bank can make it possible to send money to others in other nations without loosing much time.

[Andreas the Wise]

Yep Jonas, it sure can .... IF your economy is in the same system. If it isn't, its instant fail ....

[Bayen]

Because it was tried in the Dutch sector. An organisation which organised transactions (and still does), but it goes slow because it isn't automated. A central bank can make it possible to send money to others in other nations without loosing much time.

That sounds like the organization's fault, not the idea's. If, for example, some Aussies teamed up with some Americans, they could have people online almost all the time, and with good email notifications going on, transactions could go pretty fast. And there's always competition - if the company that's working now is doing badly, you can take over the market by establishing your own! (Remember, you run for a profit margin, so it's in your interest to keep customers.)

[Andreas the Wise]

Triumph of the free market ...

And Erik, if other nations want to use erb in a combined bank, I guess they can ... as long as their money is registered separately from Shireroth, any Shirithian citizens don't get money again in any initial distribution, and they only tax their own accounts (yeah, I did give this a bit of thought in case we had to go with it, but prefer not forcing it into the Commonwealth).