Who's the real Slim Shady?

Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:43 am

Osmose sounds like he has some plan to up activity. At the risk of being wrong, that sounds like something none of the other Kaisers are particularly interested in, so I say give him the job.

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:08 pm

Why did you think I wasn't interested in upping activity? I'm as bored as anyone.

Bill3000 · Post by **Bill3000** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:59 pm

But there are four major problems.

1. It's against the Charter.

2. He's a citizen of his own micronation.

3. He's not a citizen.

4. HE'S NOT A CITIZEN.

I would support Osmose's Kaisership more than anyone. I seriously like him and trust him. But the problem is that it's blatently against every law we have. Even if he did have a mandate of the people, it's worthless unless either: a) Erik edits the charter to allow Osmose to be Kaiser and apoints him, or, b) Osmose joins the nation and waits for Erik to resign and declare him his heir.

The only option other than following the law is by enforcing said claim. Unfortuantly, being Yardistani isn't enough of a claim. In reality, the benefits of Yardistan are a sham. The rebellions that are allowed are only if they are non-serious; the same with ignoring the law. Unless Osmose literally does a coup through taking over the forums, there is no way to enforce an illegal Kaisership like this.

Of course, you can be an unrecongized Kaiser and form some sort of micro-micronation.

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:04 pm

Well, even if you don't make Osmose Kaiser, I'll still be Antikaiser, not that it matters to anyone.

If course, if I were the Kaiser, I'd easily be able to amend the Charter and then make Osmose Kaiser, and then later on, still claim to be an Antikaiser.

Lord Farewell · Post by **Lord Farewell** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:59 pm

May I suggest that the Landsraad rule for the time being?

Jupiter · Post by **Jupiter** » Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:12 pm

Eek! He speaks Democracy!

Well, oligarchy at least. But it's closer ;-)

Sun Mar 12, 2006 11:37 pm

Since when is Osmose not a citizen? I thought he reimmigrated a while back?

osmose1000 · Post by **osmose1000** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:03 am

And then emmigrated again when I realized I STILL wouldn't like being a citizen. Which only took 24 hours.

Besides, Scott's the only one here who seems to be man enough to not bitch about laws and smart enough to realize that Shireroth is democratic enough to admit that the people choosing a Kaiser isn't that far off, so unless everyone else suddenly has a change of heart, I've already done everything I can to stimulate activity.

And Bill, you do realize half the reason I don't become a citizen is because you whine so much about me having to be one, right?

Sir Ophiuchus · Post by **Sir Ophiuchus** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:55 am

Hmm ... perhaps your coup attempt would have the side-effect of spurring the current Kaiser into action. On the other hand, if it hasn't happened by now...

Appropriate actions to punish you ... well, researching the antipopes, I see that the first antipope, Natalius:

"after being "scourged all night by the holy angels", covered in ash, dressed in sackcloth, and "after some difficulty", tearfully submitted to Pope Zephyrinus."

That would be fun. *evil grin*

Bill3000 · Post by **Bill3000** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 9:18 am

Hating democracy for the sake of hating democracy is completely and uttery retarded, Shirerothian tradition or not.

Really here, it's just the antipathy of the people resistant to change (once again) that's the problem. As I said, I'd love you to become Kaiser. I just wish that you could friggin immigrate. That's my only major nitpick.

Besides, despite the absolute hatred of "democracy" by the people of Shireroth, in reality, a micronation cannot be a completely absolute power. A monarch must take into account the will of the people or he would have a very dead nation by people leavbing. This is what happened to Shireroth in the past (The only difference is that we don't call it a micronational death because we have people who will come back eventually) and what happened to Antica, for example. An absolute monarch is not completely absolute. The Kaiser cannot realistically do whatever he wants if he wants to keep his position - you can say it to the cows come home, but the Kaiser is not the only citizen inthe nation. As well, the meritocratic process of Shireroth's appointment system seriously hampers the ability for an absolute monarch's mandate of absolute power.

Besides, Democracy's own major flaw, mob rule, isn't complete appliable to micronations. Given the small nature of micronations, saying that the majority of citizens are stupid because of Democracy is akin to saying that the majority of citizens who have meritocratic positions are stupid. Unless you identify the "stupid" elements quite blatently, there's no need for this rule. Why say "Democracy sucks because stupid people get a say" when you can say "Democracy sucks because it gives Matt Basil a say"? And considering the nature of Shireroth, people who are disliked by the people arn't likely to get a high position anyway. If Shireroth was a democracy, things would stay exactly the same in terms of positions. All I can see is that it promotes conflict, but then again, that's activity. That's one thing Shireroth doesn't have at the moment.

Anyway, I'm digressing. What I am saying here is that any successful small micronation will have democratic elements whether or not it is demotratic in its ideology and government system - it's a must for the nation. Saying otherwise is like saying that, say, socialism or capitalism are completely perfect syste. You cannot take an ideal system and think that is what reality is.

Jupiter · Post by **Jupiter** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:18 am

You do realize that everything I say is sarcastic, bitter, and not necessarily intended to be taken seriously?

So when I say, "Eek! Democracy!" what I really mean is "YAY! IT'S TRADITION-MOCKING TIME!"

osmose1000 · Post by **osmose1000** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:59 pm

You weren't who I had in mind. :P

Besides. The idea of being Kaiser bores me now that it's being dragged out.

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 1:24 pm

Gosh, Bill, just get up on your soapbox, why don't you, and overexpose people's ideas?! Care to lambast us some more?!?!?! If it weren't for your insane logic, my uneducated, underinformed, imaginary view of Antican geography wouldn't have been destroyed, you unbelievable bastard!

AngelGuardian93 · Post by **AngelGuardian93** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:14 pm

Roar!

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:33 pm

Indeed!

AngelGuardian93 · Post by **AngelGuardian93** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:34 pm

I like Roaring. ROAR!

Fax Celestis · Post by **Fax Celestis** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:37 pm

I dislike democracy because of my political views, not because it's traditional.

I believe that democracy causes strife and has been the downfall of societies both micro- and macronational. Having one person--//points "He's in charge"--not only focuses the actions of the nation towards whatever their current crusade is, but also provides a very handy scapegoat for when something goes wrong. Who are you going to blame: the entire country, or the guy in charge? By placing the fault more onto the guy in charge, you end up with less resentment.

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:40 pm

Which is exactly why the Republic is a better form of government than Democracy. We can simply blame our representatives for whatever goes wrong.

AngelGuardian93 · Post by **AngelGuardian93** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:42 pm

Wait, we do that anyway. :P

Braden Indianensis · Post by **Braden Indianensis** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:58 pm

That's why it's the Imperial REPUBLIC of Shireroth! Hooray for Imperial Republics!

Bill3000 · Post by **Bill3000** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:08 pm

I believe that democracy causes strife and has been the downfall of societies both micro- and macronational. Having one person--//points "He's in charge"--not only focuses the actions of the nation towards whatever their current crusade is, but also provides a very handy scapegoat for when something goes wrong. Who are you going to blame: the entire country, or the guy in charge? By placing the fault more onto the guy in charge, you end up with less resentment.

In the macroworld, democracies cannot practically exist, and the threats are real, I will agree with you there. However, democracy is not the downfall of micronational societies. The only reason why monarchies are so prevalent today is because they are stable. That does not mean that they are good - quite the opposite - they are just excuses for a nation to stay inactive, and many do. A nation can only flourish if every citizen has a chance or a desire to be active, which Shireroth doesn't necessarily have, not being a Democracy. The strife caused by a democracy causes a democratic nation to flourish. Ultimately it is better to be risk to be prosperous and burn quick then to be inactive and survive for awhile. It is why Shireroth doesn't prosper, because there is no strife in the

Ultimately, while democracies are less stable, they allow for a more successful micronation in the long run. As well, it is actually better to blame the entire populace for the fall of a nation than an individual person, because it is a collective guilt - it is not moral to alienate someone from micronationalism just because of the mistakes that person makes. (This is excluding the Hubertobasilesque microantionlist, of course).

There are only two real micronatinoal governments in the long run - an oligarchy and a democracy. An oligarchy keeps one faction in power, while a democracy allows each faction to have a say. A republic can be either. I don't need to wonder what you would do if you were not part of the main Shireroth faction, for example. Well, you'd quit Shireroth, of course, just because that is the way the nation works; it is why people have ultimately emmigrated from the nation, and there is nothing that can be done with that unless the system radically changes to allow those with a different faction (Mind you, this is different than simply having different ideas from people) to join and feel welcome in Shireroth.

Which is exactly why the Republic is a better form of government than Democracy. We can simply blame our representatives for whatever goes wrong.

Republics do not work in micronationalism because there is no one to represent. In the end all it is, is an oligarchy which may or may not be democratic, depending on the distribution of the votes for the representatives. The Seventh Republic of Audentior is the prime example of why a Republic may not work in micronationalism, because while there was clearly more than one faction, due to electoral screwups and the like, one party won all of the seats unanimously. The nation died quickly after because everyone who had a say were in agreement - there was no dissent to keep up activity. Strfe is the major reason why micronations live today, not culture. Culture is a flavor, not a lifeblood, of a micronation.

And no, Shireroth isn't even remotely Republican, it is completely oligachatic. There is no mandate from the people that the nobles have to follow; in fact, this is frowned upon in the nation. It's not a representative form of government, period.

Fax Celestis · Post by **Fax Celestis** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:20 pm

Shireroth, at this current juncture, is a meritocracy. The people who other people like get jobs.

Bill3000 · Post by **Bill3000** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:23 pm

Yes, I know that. But a mertiocracy is by definition an oligarchy by the terms I am using it - one faction has all the power. I probably need a better word for it, since oligarchy means "rule by the few", but it works for now.

Fax Celestis · Post by **Fax Celestis** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:47 pm

Try "aristocracy".

osmose1000 · Post by **osmose1000** » Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:19 pm

Now how is a meritocracy, even in simply this situation, any different from democracy in choosing who's Kaiser?

Kaiser Letifer II · Post by **Kaiser Letifer II** » Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:01 am

I get swamped with school for one fucking week.. and people try to oust me who aren't even citizens.. I'm not in the mood for this crap.... How the hell does one close a thread in this new forum...

*goes to find the off button...*

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