Economic Proposal

[SSFSX17]

I propose that that acts of micronationalism: the making of banners, the passing of laws, the drawing of maps, the writing of history, the writing of official statements - everything that separates a micronation from an ordinary MMORPG guild or FPS clan - be linked to the economy. All who participate in those acts should be given money from the government. Furthermore, I propose that this be the only direct means through which the government distributes money to the people (loans, certificates of deposit, and treasury bonds are indirect). In this way, Shireroth shall not only have an economy of sound foundation, but also an economy whose activity is directly linked to the well-being and existing structure of the micronation itself. Furthermore, it is impossible for such an economy to die independently of the micronation itself: so long as the micronation continues to do the acts described above, the economy is inherently moved by them as well.

[Phoenix the Risen]

so you're proposing that shireroth be a) capitalist, and b) a plutocracy? I believe you have the wrong nation... the Far Reaches is a bit more... that way *points* Phoenix the Risen - Dutchess of Kildare - Political Nuisance but at least She gets the job done. - Official Genkher of Gryphon Avocatio's Cool Short Sig and Gryphon the Pure's Awesome Tables! - COME BACK, STEVE!!! -"To quote a former Kaiser.... 'Shireroth doesn't give up land....'" ~UEC (Quoting Kaiser Letifer I), In response to claims on the Raynor Isles"To paraphrase a former Kaiser: 'Here! Take Amity for free! And that other half of Mar Sara too!'" ~SaiKar LumEth, (Paraphrasing Kaiser Mog I) In response to UEC"To paraphrase a former angry mob "DOWN WITH THE EVIL LAND-GIVING AWAY KAISER! REVOLT! REBELLION! CIVIL WAR!" ~Scott Siskind, (paraphrasing the Letifer Rebellion group) In response to SaiKar LumEth"I HEARBY QUESTION THE KAISERESS AUTHORITY!" ~Gryphon Avocado (Switching Day)

[SaiKar LumEth]

Well, so what is the Shirerothian economy if not capitalist? In the past, everyone got paid a weekly/monthy salary for doing... basically nothing. Even if you did any work, you would still get the same pay as the minister that slacked off. So payment was certainly not an encourgement to do any work.This plan, however, goes a bit too far in the other direction. Perhaps everyone should get a (low) monthy paycheck and then be given a bonus based on what they acomplished that month?

[Thomas G C]

What would you do with the money, once you've been paid?

[Gman Russell]

SSFSX17, How is it your so freakin' smart? I have to say, I like this plan. good job

[SSFSX17]

I'm not freaking smart. I'm just motivated to teach myself. My intelligence in some areas is far below that of a normal student from mainland China who has to get information and theories drilled into his/her poor head every single day. It's just that I would have the potential to keep up with the times as great changes in the way things are done happen, and the poor student would not. Of course, it's very lucrative for business to hire such students in order to keep costs low... see heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html for a quick overview (when you first see it, you'll think "Quick Overview? Shyeah right! And monkeys fly out of my butt!" but believe me, that's a quick overview) of the techworker importation situation. I guess another big secret of what I know is that I'm always looking for evidence somewhere. And if I feel like I really want to push something, I start hunting up a lot of evidence that forces me to rethink the issue. Problem is, nobody in micronationalism bothered to do "serious" in-depth studies of their situations.

[Kaiser Wyltheow I]

Umm...talk to the MiniTrade about economic proposals. he is completely in contorl of that part of the nation. Wylþeow du GrifosThe Kaiser of ShirerothThe gods blessed you with power and a visionThe gods gave you life to accomplish a mission...

[Phoenix the Risen]

Nick, I suggested that SSFSX17 give his proposal to you, considering that it may actually have an effect on the way government is run...and also for this statement:"Furthermore, it is impossible for such an economy to die independently of the micronation itself: so long as the micronation continues to do the acts described above, the economy is inherently moved by them as well."which reminds me a bit of the Shireroth-Treesia merger idea...it would put a lot of pressure on the citizens of the country to do things, which may result in emigrations up the wazoo from the newer or less active citizens. Phoenix the Risen - Dutchess of Kildare - Political Nuisance but at least She gets the job done. - Official Genkher of Gryphon Avocatio's Cool Short Sig and Gryphon the Pure's Awesome Tables! - COME BACK, STEVE!!! -"To quote a former Kaiser.... 'Shireroth doesn't give up land....'" ~UEC (Quoting Kaiser Letifer I), In response to claims on the Raynor Isles"To paraphrase a former Kaiser: 'Here! Take Amity for free! And that other half of Mar Sara too!'" ~SaiKar LumEth, (Paraphrasing Kaiser Mog I) In response to UEC"To paraphrase a former angry mob "DOWN WITH THE EVIL LAND-GIVING AWAY KAISER! REVOLT! REBELLION! CIVIL WAR!" ~Scott Siskind, (paraphrasing the Letifer Rebellion group) In response to SaiKar LumEth"I HEARBY QUESTION THE KAISERESS AUTHORITY!" ~Gryphon Avocado (Switching Day)Edited by: Phoenix the Risen at: 3/7/04 8:26 pm

[Austi Scot]

Let me say that as Minister of Trade I appreciate the Kaisers statement:Quote:Umm...talk to the MiniTrade about economic proposals. he is completely in contorl of that part of the nation.SSFSX has spoken to me about these proposals. Until tonight I have not given him direct answers. It was just before reading this thread that I responded in the MiniTrade forum. It is not that SSFSX and I disagree on what must be done to sustain the economic simulation but we do seem to disagree about what method should be used to reach our shared goal. To be fair I have not explained my choice of methods before tonight. SSFSX has shown himself to be very intelligent in the area of economics and has also shown a desire to place our economic simulation on a sound footing. We do appear to disagree about how that sound footing is to be established. It seems he wants to establish it be way of demand, using MiniTrade directives or even laws established by the Landsraad, while I want to establish it by means of slow introduction and growth towards the desired goal. It is true that I am using a method of requirements and restrictions to obtain the desired actions and effects. I believe my method will be slower and less direct yet allowing the simulation to become an ingrained part of micronationalism. It is my desire to involve others in the Ministry of Trade and as a part of that goal I offered the position of stock market manager to SSFSX. This is a position to be held within MiniTrade, and the manager reports to and serves at the pleasure of the Minister.However, I have given SSFSX complete authority to run the stock market by whatever methods are chosen by him. The method chosen will become a part of our simulation for future Ministers of Trade and future stock managers to follow. I also submit that his statement… Quote:Problem is, nobody in micronationalism bothered to do "serious" in-depth studies of their situations.… is not the actual case. There are those of us here in Shireroth, myself included, who aware of pass discussion about how an economic simulation in micronationalism can and should work. I took part in a good portion of those discussion as others may be aware.SSFSX has questioned my knowledge and ability in the area of economics. This is understandable due to the fact that I am not following a traditional approach to real world economics. It has been my desire since joining micronationalism in the fall of 1999 to have an economic simulation. In those efforts I have attempted at least two simulations that closely followed real life capitalist economics. I have also observed the simulated economies of several micronations – from demand economies, to mixed economies, to completely capitalistic economies. As a result I have developed the method that I am currently using in this attempt to establish the economic simulation here in Shireroth. It is my view that there is more to take into account than just which type of economy should be simulated.To inform you of a few real life facts about myself for those interested, I am a student of Austrian economics as taught by the Ludwig von Mises Institute. I offer this link: http://www.mises.org/ . While in college I was the vice-president of the Financial Association. It is the teachings of John Maynard Keynes which are mostly promoted at universities and while it is Keynesian economics (or debt economics) that is used in the United States, I am among those who follow and promote Austrian economics as taught by Ludwig von Mises. As a matter of fact I have belonged to a local group that meets on a monthy basis to discuss both real world economics and politics. It is from the term “Austrian” economics that I chose the name Austi. I took the word Austrian and bastardized it, taking out the r, a, and n. I chose Scot because I like the sound of the name and used to think that if, as a child, I could have chosen my own name I would have chosen Timothy Allen Scot. When I began to study economics more closely and became enamored with Austrian economics and later found a need to create a handle for the internet I chose the first name Austi as I have already described and the last name Scot. I have never served in public office but was the candidate of a major political party for the office of State Representative. Not that it should matter to anyone here --- I lost the election by 106 votes.So, while I am not revealing every aspect and detail of my economic simulation plan step by step, I believe I can help to bring about an economic simulation that will be able to be carried on by future Ministers of Trade. I also believe that SSFSX is capable of this task and would not be offended if you decide to have the economy established in the fashion chosen by SSFSX. If you do wish to have the plan offered by SSFSX please make him the Minister of Trade as he would need a free hand to put forth his objectives.Austi Scot

[david northworthy beckfor]

*looks at Austi's imprompty resume......*blooming heck!WE'RE NOT WORTHY! WE'RE NOT WORTHY! "Disclaimer: Whatever is in the above post is probably a result of my blind following of Kieran Bennett, because I have even less of a brain than Kieran. Don't even get me started on my lack of independent thought."

[Scott Alexander]

Ooh, looks like we have an Austrian and a Keynesian (okay, I don't have any support for that, I'm basing that completely on references to Keynes and Krugman in the Asia post) in the same Ministry. I think experience demonstrates there is only one way to settle this...DUEL TO THE DEATH! Edited by: Scott Siskind  at: 3/8/04 1:01 pm

[SSFSX17]

I'm not really a Keynesian. I'd say I'm more of a "smartass" or "crazy boy." Keynes was certainly revolutionary compared to his peers, but he was only the beginning of macroeconomics. Furthermore, since he was the first of his kind, he made some mistakes when trying to simultaneously begin the field of investor psychology. Nowadays, with automatic machine trading and the automatic computer crunching of pretty much all logistics, a new model is sure to be needed.

[Kaiser Wyltheow I]

(Basically, micronational economies befuddle me and just give me a headache. Because of my lack of aptitude pertaining to the subject, i prefer to leave any important decisions about the economy to he who understands them. Thus, Austi is in control of the economy. If it comes down to me having to make a decision, you'll have to find somebody who can explain it to me in laymen's terms so I won't muck it up.) Wylþeow du GrifosThe Kaiser of ShirerothThe gods blessed you with power and a visionThe gods gave you life to accomplish a mission...

[Fidel Nico]

Mises! D -->D"> Eurgh, doesn't sound like a very nice kind of economics to me.Atleast old Maynard made western economics human. Comrade Fidel NicoNi Dieu ni maîtreRepublic of Noviykrazniystan